Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Welcome to the Closeness Podcast, your new sexual education. My name is T, I'm your host and in today's episode, we're going to get a female perspective for a welcome change on all things related to sex, intimacy, and relationships. It's an interview and I think you're going to be pleasantly surprised by how much life knowledge this young woman has for everyone listening to learn from and grow from. And I think the combination of both of our experiences together is gonna give you a lot of insight into love, life, attraction, and relationships. It's really cool, you know, so much has changed in the world, especially with regard to how we date, how we navigate relationships, how men and women now behave when they're sexually attracted to one another. I think it's going be incredibly interesting to do this interview with a highly intelligent, highly attractive college student. And of course, as usual, we're going to be covering lots of sexy and intimate stuff. And as a sample in this case, who should initiate sex? Teaching men how to become better lovers, what eye contact looks like and what it symbolizes and means. All sorts of details about confidence. Who should approach who, what young woman look for in a man consent, how to go down and all through the eyes and perception of a young woman. So today I'm joined by a very special guest named Ashley. Hey Ashley. Welcome. Hi. Hi. So yes,
Speaker 0 00:01:20 There are several reasons why I thought you'd be a perfect fit for the show. I love that you take a stand for what you believe in and that you think and make choices for yourself and that you not only support your girlfriends and guy friends, but you help them nurture them. And in a very special way that will find out soon, you teach them on top of all of this, you've got a lot of very insightful and intriguing things to share. So Ashley is currently still an undergrad. She is 20 years old. Ash, can you tell us a little bit about what you're majoring in?
Speaker 1 00:01:49 Sure. So I'm doing a dual major in psychology and neuroscience with a minor in data science. I just finished my minor in Spanish and so there was some room in my schedule, so I figured, ah, let's learn to code.
Speaker 0 00:02:01 Well you're keeping yourself busy now. You also have a strong interest in neurology, is that right? Yes,
Speaker 1 00:02:07 Neurology is the more medicinal side of neuroscience. If you go into neurology you typically get an md, Neuroscientists get a PhD. Master's maybe. But right now an undergrad just studying neuroscience,
Speaker 0 00:02:20 That sounds pretty amazing. You know, usually when we're 20, most of us don't know what to do with our lives quite yet. Do you have certainty around this or are you still exploring other areas?
Speaker 1 00:02:29 Absolutely not. Not in the slightest. I had a professor tell me that undergrad is the time in your life where you study something that blows your hair back. Decided
Speaker 0 00:02:38 Like knocking your socks on <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:02:39 Yes, very similar. And so I've just, you know, decided to roll with that. Uh, I was originally a business student, did not like it at all. Finance, accounting, very boring. And then I took a psychology class cuz I was expecting to have that as a minor in association with my marketing degree. And then I realized, oh, this is really cool. Not just in the sense of this really applies well to business, but this applies to so many different fields, including your work. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, why not just make that the main gig.
Speaker 0 00:03:07 Nice. You're very eloquent. Let's give the audience just a basic sense of what you look like since you have some pretty unique attributes and then we'll get into some other juicy stuff. Gotcha. So we know you're 20. How tall are you?
Speaker 1 00:03:18 I'm just under six
Speaker 0 00:03:19 One. And for some particular female listeners, what's your uh, sign?
Speaker 1 00:03:24 My sign. Virgo.
Speaker 0 00:03:25 How long is your hair?
Speaker 1 00:03:27 It's right by my jaw.
Speaker 0 00:03:29 And what color your eyes?
Speaker 1 00:03:30 My eyes. Hazel.
Speaker 0 00:03:32 And what would you say your body type is?
Speaker 1 00:03:34 I would say, oh, let me think about that. I would probably say hourglass.
Speaker 0 00:03:40 I would agree with that. Okay. <laugh>. All right. Enough of that. Let's get started by talking about your experience in the dating world and maybe start with dating apps.
Speaker 1 00:03:49 All right. Well starting with dating apps, I actually deleted all dating apps my freshman year of college, which I think is when most of my peers start to get into them.
Speaker 0 00:04:02 You deleted them your freshman year of college? Yes. Which means you had been on them since
Speaker 1 00:04:06 I turned 18. So September Virgo, right after I turned 18, I immediately downloaded Bumble, Tinder and Hinge because I was so tired of high school boys. I was just sick of the immaturity. There was no one in my high school that really interested me. And so, you know, I, I wanted to open the net and play a bigger field.
Speaker 0 00:04:30 So did you always know you'd be attracted to older men or was this your first experience with that? I
Speaker 1 00:04:34 Had always been told since I was young that I was very mature for my age. I always had an old soul. With that being constantly told that day in day out, it just kind of made more sense to go out with guys that were older. I had never done that before until I had downloaded the dating app. Started matching with guys in college or just graduated college. And from there was going on dates.
Speaker 0 00:05:01 What was the age range of the menu you were matching with?
Speaker 1 00:05:04 Anywhere between 19 to 24. I didn't want to go any higher than that. Um, I was still living at home. I would still have to find a way to either work around my parents or have them meet my parents college, you know, a college student dating a senior in high school is way more digestible I think, than a new grad. Working a full-time job, going out with a senior in high school is not something my father would be proud
Speaker 0 00:05:35 About. Indeed. So
Speaker 1 00:05:37 Being an athlete in high school, being on a co-ed team, you get a lot of guy friends. Um, so hearing their side of the dating uh, apps is also really interesting cuz I would open my phone after school and have a dozen new matches. My friend on the other hand would open up his phone and he would be lucky to have one or two every three days. It's definitely a bigger pond for women, but the quality that you have to sift through I think is more arduous work than anything else.
Speaker 0 00:06:06 Yeah. Over the years, so many girlfriends have shown me their bumble or tinder and it's just unfathomable the difference between men and women. I can literally scroll for approximately two minutes straight and never reach the bottom of some women's matches. And that's compared to most men who usually have anywhere between zero and five unless you're unusually genetically gifted. But anyway. What kind of athlete were you?
Speaker 1 00:06:29 I was a swimmer. And
Speaker 0 00:06:32 Did you also happen to swim with the boys?
Speaker 1 00:06:34 I would.
Speaker 0 00:06:35 And enjoy yourself immensely.
Speaker 1 00:06:37 Every lap
Speaker 0 00:06:37 Kicking ass and taking names.
Speaker 1 00:06:39 <laugh>. It was a very good outlet for a girl who was too aggressive for land sports. I think there's something really beautiful in swimming just because you're really pus
Speaker 0 00:06:53 Pussying. What?
Speaker 1 00:06:54 Um, I think swimming's a really beautiful sport, especially for women because you push yourself in a way that not many other sports push you. It's really just you and the lane swimming up and down, up and down. It's really insanity if you look at the definition of
Speaker 0 00:07:09 It. Not meditative,
Speaker 1 00:07:11 You know, moments, moments. There were, it's very calming. But yes, I, uh, I love swimming. But that's, that's in the past now.
Speaker 0 00:07:19 So you've actually spent a lot of time around boys through your mid to late teenage years?
Speaker 1 00:07:24 Yeah, so I swam on a co-ed club team, swam with boys, really appreciated swimming with men. I think they're really good adversaries. It was very fun, very competitive, very lighthearted. The women on my team were amazing, equally as competitive as the boys, but I found there to be always less drama, swimming in the boys' lanes. There was always some sort of school dilemma that they were bringing from the classroom or from the hallways into the pool. And I wasn't really there to be involved in that. I was just there to swim.
Speaker 0 00:07:56 Tell us what you mean when you say drama. Was it vicious cruel mean or just gossipy and chatty?
Speaker 1 00:08:02 You know, because I was always in the boys' lanes. I wasn't really close with any girl in particular, but when they would fight then they would come to me and try and be my friend. But it would only last for like a week or so.
Speaker 0 00:08:14 And if it's not entirely obvious, what do teenage girls fight about these days?
Speaker 1 00:08:19 Boys. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Just stupid, stupid boys. And don't get me wrong, I loved my high school guy friends, but I never thought for a second one of them was worth fighting over for any reason. Not to discredit or devalue them, but I just didn't understand why we all couldn't get along.
Speaker 0 00:08:39 Why can't we all just get along?
Speaker 1 00:08:40 Ooh. You know when, when you're on a team that's co-ed, which there are not very many teams in sports, at least high school sports that I'm aware of that are co-ed. I know there's track cross country boys soccer, girl soccer, still the same sport, but they're separated. You're not practicing together, you're not going to meets together with swimming track. You're constantly with one another. And so for me, I kind of looked at the boys on my team as siblings, but I think a lot of these other girls that were on my team were looking at them as potential boyfriends or had crushes on them. And so there were times where fights would break out between girls over and I say break out. I mean it would just be like little common petty snide comments being made. It was nothing extreme, but it was enough for me to not want to have any part of it.
Speaker 0 00:09:28 So do you mean situations where a girl is either sleeping with or dating the same guy as another girl or arguing over the rights to flirt with him? How does that look?
Speaker 1 00:09:37 I think the latter's probably how I would describe high school flirting. Let's say you have a group of girlfriends and there's some cute guy that's on whatever team, whether it's your team or guy that sits up in your class. I don't know, I'm so beyond this now, but trying to dive back into it, I just remember, um, girls would always say like, well I started talking to him, I got his Snapchat first. He's mine, whatever. That kind of territory, it's like when a cat pisses on something, they mark their territory and that's kind of how women were in high school. And I didn't mind that. Listen, when I had a crush on a guy, I also didn't want a bunch of other girls around him giving him attention like I wanted.
Speaker 0 00:10:17 Uh, just a moment. How did you mark your territory? Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 00:10:20 <affirmative>. Well, honestly, and you know, I used to get a lot of backlash for it, but I would wanna be their friend first. If we can be friends, then there's the potential for us to have something more. If I can be friends with you, I, I don't want to be with you period. Because there's gonna come days where the romance isn't there and there's not this just, oh my gosh, super hot igniting passion. And I just really wanna veg out with someone on the couch and share laughs. I think when you have a friendship with someone in a partnership that's also romantic, it garners more respect than if it was just, if the relationship was just a romantic interaction, always.
Speaker 0 00:10:55 Those are really beautiful ideals. Were you able to successfully put that into action? Could you invite boys to your house and actually sit on the couch chill and get to know each other without more being expected?
Speaker 1 00:11:07 I was, it didn't last very long. However, there would come a point where the boys that I was friends with that would always try something. And for those that didn't end up trying anything, they proved to be true friends. I'm happy to say that those boys are still, I guess they're men now, but they're still my friends today and I'm really grateful for those, those interactions and that they didn't try anything.
Speaker 0 00:11:28 For you then, what does it look like to be true friends with someone at your age? You know, there's physical attraction, you've got your hormones raging, probably in both people. How do you create a situation where your friends first?
Speaker 1 00:11:41 I think for guys on my team, we had a common goal that was to get faster, to get stronger. It wasn't to fuck each other. I think if I did not have the guy friends that I had on my team and I went looking for guy friends elsewhere, I wouldn't have found them as easily because interacting with men in class, you know, if we're working on a class project together, that's one thing. There's a common goal when men and women are left alone without a common goal. There's only so many options that they have
Speaker 0 00:12:11 <laugh>. But here you're primarily speaking about your swimming teammates. Right?
Speaker 1 00:12:14 I didn't have guy friends unless they were either on my team or a guy that I had worked on a school project with. But being exposed and being on such a close team with guys in Speedos all day, you get very accustomed to locker room talk. You know, male banter, male humor, as deplorable as it can be sometimes, but being around both men and women in an athletic sport, you realize we're not that all that different.
Speaker 0 00:12:42 Okay. Now along the lines of co-ed interaction, you're also part of a, not sorority but fraternity. Is that correct? Yes. Okay.
Speaker 1 00:12:51 Yes, that's right.
Speaker 0 00:12:52 How does that work in 2022,
Speaker 1 00:12:54 Just for the listeners context? It is co-ed. I'm not in a big frat house with a bunch of guys. That is not the kind of college experience that I would want. I tend to stay away from Greek life. This is a professional fraternity. We focus on professional development and overall just resume building. But in a community platform, which is really nice given the alumni database with that co-ed interaction being so used to it from a athletic point of view, transitioning that into another community circle is the same story, just in a different environment. Girls don't really change, Boys don't really change. We just get older and have added responsibility.
Speaker 0 00:13:36 That was well said. So to put it in context for people listening, why is it called a fraternity? I
Speaker 1 00:13:41 Think there's just no middle name. Sororities in Greek life are for women fraternities and Greek life are for men. Why come up with a new word? Mm-hmm
Speaker 0 00:13:51 <affirmative>. Well it strikes me as very interesting nevertheless that men and women would cohabitate in the same house because as fun as I'm sure that can be, I also imagine that inherently within that idea there are some dangers. Would you like to speak to that? Is everyone just a benevolent angel to one another or is there more that meets the eye?
Speaker 1 00:14:09 So it's kind of like I said, you put a girl and a guy in a room without a common goal and there's only so many things for them to do that
Speaker 0 00:14:16 A condom without
Speaker 1 00:14:17 <laugh>. Um, we don't have a house. So sororities, fraternities, they will have their Greek house. We don't have that. Uh, we're not allowed to because we're only a professional fraternity. It's a little, our rules are a little bit more strict and different. But we do have mountain weekends, we have lake weekends and
Speaker 0 00:14:37 That sounds even more hot or dangerous.
Speaker 1 00:14:40 Well for some, for some weekends it's lovely and we all get along great. And then some others are just massive orgies. And it really just depends on the group and <laugh>, um, you know, how everyone's feeling and how the night goes on. I will say we're a pretty tame crowd, but I have heard stories of mountain weekends just turning, like I said, into massive orgys where everyone's just like going at each other. I know girls that have gotten with multiple guys in the same night then come to me for advice in the morning. It, it's a lot.
Speaker 0 00:15:10 I know a lot of people love to say, Oh, things just happened. I don't know how we got here, but who initiates all these things.
Speaker 1 00:15:16 I think for my age group now, it's definitely women that are the initiators. Men can give signals that they're open and that they,
Speaker 0 00:15:25 That they're ready.
Speaker 1 00:15:26 Ready I, yes, ready and able, but it's really women who have to strike the match.
Speaker 0 00:15:32 All right. Now this is very interesting because it kind of flies in the face of how things tend to go in the outside world where most of the time women are almost waiting around for men to approach or expect that men do. Men aren't just standing there giving off vibes. Usually we need to do something. How did it get this way, do you think? And can you give some examples of what you think these choosing signals are? How women behave in order to get what they want?
Speaker 1 00:15:56 I think that's interesting. You know, in the past and going into the dating world, before I had any experience of my own, I thought that men were the ones that were always supposed to initiate. But I realized that if we as women don't give that first signal, nothing will ever happen.
Speaker 0 00:16:12 Yes, nowadays that's absolutely true.
Speaker 1 00:16:14 With this day and age. There's so much on the line for men in terms of messing up. I've not had anyone in my personal life, but I know of men who genuinely just took a sign wrong and engaged and got the police called on them.
Speaker 0 00:16:34 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:16:35 Now that's an exaggeration. And there's definitely stories and experiences where the police should be called.
Speaker 0 00:16:42 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:16:43 But I do see that, you know, men are faced with a lot of risk in putting themselves out there sexually.
Speaker 0 00:16:51 Yeah, you're making a really good point because regardless of expectations, what the norms are, or even hopes of how things should go, if men now carry not just a greater risk, but a real physical, emotional, mental danger to doing so. And let's be clear danger simply by approaching a female, we're trying out a dating tip or a technique or even a line as he's trying to get a girl's attention for the first few years of his life trying to do this. If the risk is too high, I think you're gonna see a lot of men or guys who just don't take action. Do you know a third of men under 30 aren't having sex right now? And this is so interesting because it really feels like women want to expect the man to put it all in the line to shoot his shot, to be the one who approaches to be manly in the sense that women don't wanna make the first move.
Speaker 0 00:17:36 They don't wanna accept accountability or responsibility or rejection or pay the consequences of what happens if they don't like the result of making the first move. So as men, were expected to take all the risk, but now that risk comes at even a greater cost. So men are questioning whether it's worth it or not. And don't get me wrong, I'm not minimizing any of the risks that women go through or how difficult it can be to date men. I know there's a whole other side of that, but when we're talking about rejection, women don't wanna see it, feel it, smell it, taste it, none of that. But you're telling a bit of a different story now for college girls. So what are girls your age doing to,
Speaker 1 00:18:11 To get a man's attention and say it's okay? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, You know, it's so interesting and I, I do wanna make a note that I don't think that this would be an issue if there wasn't an issue to begin with.
Speaker 0 00:18:21 An issue with what?
Speaker 1 00:18:22 Just an issue with men engaging. Uh, women are on their guard all the time because we hear the horror stories of what happens.
Speaker 0 00:18:31 Yeah. It almost feels like you have to be,
Speaker 1 00:18:33 When you're constantly put on edge, it's really hard to interact with someone in a genuine, authentic way the entire time a man is talking to me, let's say he comes up to me at the bar, I'm trying to pay attention to him. I'm trying to see if I think he's attractive, but I'm also trying to make sure, okay, he's not gonna rape me later. Right. And it's really sad that that is what's cosing through most women's brain. I, at least mine and my, my female friends. But there's a lot that we're having to factor in when we just have that first initial meeting.
Speaker 0 00:19:06 Right. And I think how that comes out is women will often say, Well, men have no idea what it's like to be a woman, for instance, to walk to our cars at night, to always be scared if we're walking down the street by ourselves. But you seem to have an unusual amount of understanding and empathy for men too. It's
Speaker 1 00:19:22 Really hard for you guys because you guys, even if you, if let's say a guy has the most purest of intentions, would never harm a fly, goes up to a woman, wants to talk to her, you know, he's having to be on his Ps and Qs to make sure nothing gets taken the wrong way. You know, I, it's really hard for guys, there's a lot on the line for them in terms of their life. And also, you know, as a woman saying this, I think it's always a little difficult, but I'm going to say it, there are women out there that will lie and that will say that a man did something that they didn't. And if that's in the back of a man's mind when he is talking to a girl at the bar, of course he's not gonna be this much smo, you know, masculine figure when approaching a woman cuz he's scared
Speaker 0 00:20:05 You're a hundred percent right. It's almost impossible for any man to be very sexually confident and competent and give the right eye contact if he's simultaneously in fear about what might happen to him or his life. I mean these are two very contradictory possibilities. But oftentimes women want to have it all. They wanna have the final word, be able to dismiss him, reject him, send him away. But one of the biggest telltale signs of whether a woman will accept man's advances or not are his well is his level of confidence. And they're repulsed often when a man is not confident, he's frightened. Yeah. And we live in a world where we are expected to be confident, competent, sexually capable, strong and powerful. And we live in a world where most women do want to be enticed or seduced or enchanted or led on a journey or adventure sexually by someone who possesses these qualities. But then on the other hand, every single day in our society, we have this need to be ultra, ultra cautious, careful to walk on eggshells, to mind our ps and Qs, to watch out for anything that we say and do. I think it really makes people second guess themselves. And when you second guess yourself, it's very hard to be confident. So how does a man wind up confidently walking that line? Incidentally, in closeness sessions, this is the bulk of what I wind up teaching people. Ashley give us an intelligent woman's perspective.
Speaker 1 00:21:24 What I find when I'm at the bar with my friends,
Speaker 0 00:21:27 Hold on. How often are you at the bar? I'm
Speaker 1 00:21:30 At the bar. Enough
Speaker 0 00:21:32 <laugh> situation is at
Speaker 1 00:21:33 The bar. Okay, listen, I'm in a fraternity. We go to bars,
Speaker 0 00:21:37 Girl's always at the bar man <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:21:40 So I see two types of men. There's the man that is consent king is what we call him in the female community. Maybe you men are, are aware of it.
Speaker 0 00:21:52 Is consent king sexually attractive to you and your girlfriends?
Speaker 1 00:21:55 Some yes, some no. For the most part, especially for me, absolutely the fuck not, I do not need, if I am opening myself up to you through body language, verbal communication, you don't need to ask. But I understand why in our current culture in society there is that fear that then intrigues them to ask totally yada yada. So I, I'm okay with it. What I don't want is a man on top of me asking if every single movement that he's doing prior to fucking me is okay. You know, you'll get these guys that are like, is that okay? Is this hurting you? Is that okay? And I understand why they're doing it and I appreciate it from the sense of this is very kind and concerning. They wanna make sure that I know that they're not gonna do anything to hurt me. But then it takes away from the experience of being fucked.
Speaker 0 00:22:45 And usually for women, the excitement. And
Speaker 1 00:22:48 That's what you want as a woman that night. And you have a guy that's, you know, using kitten paw when he touches you just very gentle, very soft. And it's like, hey, is this okay? Is this okay? I think for the first time that's, that's fine and it's acceptable. Just especially if you just met each other that night after that. Absolutely not. So back to what I was saying, there's the consent king, lovable, adorable. Some women view him as pathetic. I just think he's doing his best with what he's got. Especially at the age of 2023. I'm, you know, you never know how much sexual experience a guy's dealing with. Or you have the guy that sits in the corner of the bar and is buying drinks for everyone in his fraternity and just doesn't give a shit. Some girls think he's cocky and confident, I find them repulsive, but they typically have a bunch of different girls coming up to them. And the girls, I will say it's a little disappointing in the sense that they're really overly excited to talk to this guy.
Speaker 0 00:23:44 And what is this guy in the corner who I imagine later in life will represent the dude in the vip? What is this guy in the corner doing that you think your girlfriends find so attractive?
Speaker 1 00:23:53 I've been trying to figure that out myself because there's a reason why I'm repulsed,
Speaker 0 00:23:58 Which is he
Speaker 1 00:24:00 Just thinks that he's all, that he thinks that the age of 20, he's got it all figured out. I don't like the way he treats women. He'll have multiple girls come up to him and he just is very aloof. He doesn't, he, it's very, um, what I would consider inauthentic as a human being, not as a man or a woman. If I saw a woman acting that way, I would feel the same. Overly cocky, not kind at all. Not intelligent either. My thing is, if you're gonna act like the shit, you need to be the shit. And I think at the age of 20, no guy really is
Speaker 0 00:24:34 The shit. Yeah, that's actually really accurate, especially for young women because they are often fooled by a false sense of confidence. True confidence on the other hand means you're actually very capable and competent at what you do. But you're not just there with a cocky grin on your face. You actually know how to ravish a woman and not do what you saw in PornHub at the age of 20 or 23. It's very unlikely that someone's going to be there. But it's very easy to present the image of false confidence for both men and women actually. And young women love, love, love high levels of confidence. So when a guy in a drunken stupor who appears to be confident just takes her home, bangs her out and does what he saw in porn, she'll probably wake up regretting the experience. And to me, things like this lead to all those little traumas that wind up making women feel very wary about going home with men.
Speaker 0 00:25:22 But women have to take responsibility too for putting themselves in situations where they are around or want to be with or sleep with these kinds of men. Whereas it's far less likely to happen with the stereotypical nice guy. So if you're a woman listening, it's really worth asking yourself, is it worth being drawn to men who are so arrogant or cocky or have this bad boy mentality or lots of tattoos or whatever sign you're using to determine whether you think he's got it going on or not. Because if you repeat a pattern like that over time, then you start wondering where all the good guys have gone and it gets harder and harder to find a mate, then she winds up in my office because she married a really, really nice guy, but generally lacks that sexual prowess and intensity that she got from some of those other dudes.
Speaker 0 00:26:07 So I think what Ashley is talking about here, when she says, I don't wanna have to explain it or have to have him ask for consent at every turn, she wants someone to be able to read her. And being able to achieve that skill is a very, very essential part of becoming or being a man. And then finally, in the confines of a committed relationship, you know, when you're not at the bar <laugh>, when you're in a committed relationship, you actually have the ability to be sexual and be incredibly intimate without having to ask all the time. And this winds up being what a lot of wives and long-term girlfriends actually want, which is to not be
Speaker 1 00:26:42 Asked when he started laughing. I just want everyone to know I did flip him the bird double, double bird. He's double. Yeah. Um, so I have actually a question for you. So you find a lot of women in your practice marrying the good guy. Would you consider him the consent king, would you say?
Speaker 0 00:26:59 Probably he's got a lot of qualities of the guy that you're describing, which are, I don't wanna hurt my girl, I kind of gotta walk on eggshells, happy wife, happy life, I wanna do anything to please her. I don't wanna be dominant with her because that might upset her. All of these things sound great by themselves. No one wants to make their partner do something they don't want to do. But what it is is often a tepid, flacid and emotionless approach, it usually leads men to asking for sex verbally or always initiating the same way, or start sex in a way that's way too gentle or hard for her to read and track as opposed to feeling really sexy and turned on by his assertiveness.
Speaker 1 00:27:36 I see. Yeah. So I think it goes back to confidence when a guy asks, Hey, do you wanna go have sex now? Not really attractive. That's, it doesn't make me feel wanted. It doesn't, there's no fire, there's no heat, no passion. It almost just sounds like, hey, do you wanna go get milkshakes? I'm so much more than a milkshake as a woman, but
Speaker 0 00:27:57 You still bring all the boys to the yard.
Speaker 1 00:27:58 Like I am so much more than a milkshake. I don't wanna be sought after like I'm going to get one <laugh>. But then conversely, then you have guy in the corner of the bar acting cool, there's like this smug little look that they carry and I know behind it there's just a scared little boy that was probably either bullied or realize, okay, well being a nice guy hasn't gotten me that far. This is going to do a lot more for me. And I think it does short term, but it's all a facade. I think if you're constantly trying to put up this wall of false confidence, you never give yourself the time and space to build up true confidence.
Speaker 0 00:28:38 Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 00:28:38 Whether it's with the consent king or the douche in the corner, I have found with both women are the ones initiating and walking up and talking to them. And I know that this sounds crazy, but I see it a lot and maybe it's not walking right up and saying, Hi, my name's so and so. It's more of a, I make eye contact with you, you make eye contact with me, the douche is gonna look away because he doesn't want, you know, he doesn't wanna seem interested. The consent king is gonna look away because from what I've noticed is he's shy and nervous doesn't wanna come off as a creep. That's the other thing too. If you stare your creep, if you gaze, you want someone like there, there's so many different nuances to emotional body language and for guys that have no experience and no older male figures to learn from, they're kind of screwed and they're from 20 to 25 or beyond, you know, that's a real big learning phase and you know, time for them.
Speaker 1 00:29:41 What I'm trying to get at is regardless, women are the ones having to throw up the signals of, Hi, I'm interested. And with the shy guy, you know, they walk over, Hi, how are you? They get into a nice conversation. It's definitely more genuine than the douche who I see a lot of girls and sororities will go up to them and be like, Hi, I'm blah blah, blah, do you know so and so? Like blah, blah blah blah. And it's just, it's very, I see women matching the vibes of the men that they're talking to. So douche, it's definitely artificial. They know that. They don't know that the confidence is fake, but the exchange becomes very inauthentic. The shy guy, it's very quiet, it's very timid, it's sweet. Hey, who are you? How are you? You know, what do you do? What's your major? I see both happen, but regardless, women are the ones that have to throw up the flag first.
Speaker 0 00:30:30 So how do you think it goes from, Hey, I'm douche to sex. How do you think it goes from the bar to the bedroom?
Speaker 1 00:30:35 So I guess for listeners you should know, I'm definitely more of a dominant woman in the sense that I will be the one to initiate any sort of sexual encounter first. There have been very few moments where I've been hit on by like, I comes up to me and starts hitting on me. Usually how it goes is they sit down, they start talking to me, we hit it off, then we go somewhere private, start talking a little bit more intimately.
Speaker 0 00:31:02 How do you get somewhere more private?
Speaker 1 00:31:04 You need me stand up from the couch? No <laugh>. I mean, uh,
Speaker 0 00:31:08 Are you actually saying, Hey, do you wanna take this somewhere else? Who actually leads that experience? Unfortunately
Speaker 1 00:31:14 It is. I typically, so it's with most of my female friends that are not as dominant as I am, it usually can be, if it's with Consent King, it's probably gonna be the next time that they see consent King at the bar that they're gonna go home with them douche bag boy, he has to go through his Snapchat inbox for a solid five minutes to pick which one of the girls that is in his dm. You're
Speaker 0 00:31:41 Too much.
Speaker 1 00:31:41 I, I don't, I don't know how it works. I've, I've purposefully removed myself from that social media platform so as to avoid all of the absolute nonsense that occurs there. I could go on a whole different ran about that anyways with most of the men that I interact with. Uh, you know, some have been douches, some have been consent king, some have just been really nice guys. I think there is a middle ground where it's just a confident guy just doing his thing. That's probably what I'm most attracted to. And with those interactions, we sit, we talk, we chat, get to know one another for a little bit. If there is that kind of chemistry, we'll find a way, whether it's upon my initiation or his to go somewhere private and if something sexual occurs out of there, so be it. If not, you know, we develop this pseudo friendship where it's, if it's not this time, it might be the next time or if it's not that time, it might be the next time that something gets added. But if the chemistry's there, I think it's really hard for both parties to hold off.
Speaker 0 00:32:44 I wish you all could have seen Ashley's face when she was letting us know how dominant she is. Chin down, eyes narrowed. But I think it's safe to say that you feel pretty comfortable around the opposite sex.
Speaker 1 00:32:55 I would say so, yeah. I think because of my athletic experience, it definitely gave me a predisposition to being very comfortable and making friends with guys very easily from a young age. I know that can be very difficult for some women having strictly male friends. A lot of people say they don't exist. I partially agree, I think because I've been around men in such relaxed environments, such low stake environments where I'm seen as a competitor or a sister or a fraternity brother. There's no
Speaker 0 00:33:31 Sexualization. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:33:32 There, there's not this game a foot like you would have, uh, let's say looking at a girl from across the way at a bar, being younger, I was way taller than all the boys. Uh, middle school, high school. Like I wasn't really on the dating, I wasn't seen as a young girl that men in middle school or high school would want to ask out, mainly because they would have to look up to me Right. In order to do it. And quite frankly, testing the self-esteem of a high school aged boy, they're, they're not gonna look up and ask a girl out.
Speaker 0 00:34:04 Okay, cool. How did you come into your sexuality? And you don't have to speak about losing your virginity and all that if you don't want to, but how did you find out that you were a sexual being? When did you find out that boys or men wanted something from you?
Speaker 1 00:34:17 So I would say that I came into my sexuality rather early. I was exposed to porn at a very young age, not intentionally. Oh. I had a friend's older brother leave it on his computer and we just walked in and saw it.
Speaker 0 00:34:30 How old were you?
Speaker 1 00:34:31 Uh, I was in the fourth grade, so probably I would say, gosh, I don't know, nine. Really
Speaker 0 00:34:38 Young.
Speaker 1 00:34:38 Very young. I mean, looking back, I, you know, you, you never think how young you are when you're that age. But I was, I was a baby, you know, I, I have cousins that are that age and I can't even fathom them being in my shoes watching what was on the screen.
Speaker 0 00:34:53 Would you say that that was your first exposure to sexuality?
Speaker 1 00:34:57 I would say so, yeah. Since that point I would recognize how I would interact with my friends' brothers, their cousins, guys on my swim team. I remember there was one day that we were sitting in the office and it was a girlfriend and I, we were in our swimsuits and practice had just ended and we're just goofing off waiting for our moms to pick us up. I think we're in middle school at this point and my mom calls me, we get on the phone and one of my guy friends who I had seen as a guy friend, nothing else more, nothing, you know, flirtatious or anything had ever occurred between us cuz we're in middle school, you know, I was just getting over the fact that boys had cooties and he takes the phone and says, Mrs T, your daughter's so pretty. I love her so much and makes this star bright, look in my face, grin ear to ear and then runs off. Just immediately takes off. And yeah, I would say that's the first time that I had ever blushed from my guy Sweet. And I had ever truly believed, you know, your dad is always is gonna say like, Oh you're so pretty, you're, oh, you're so cute. But this was the first time another guy had ever told me, Wow, you're really pretty or you're beautiful. Especially, I mean he wasn't even really telling me, he was telling my mom. Um, which I thought was really weird. Um, I did not handle it well.
Speaker 0 00:36:18 <laugh>, this was also in the fourth
Speaker 1 00:36:19 Grade? No, this was when I was in middle school. Oh, sixth or seventh grade. In between that I really started to recognize how brothers, cousins of my friends would look at me. I remember one time I put my legs and my guy friends' lap and I felt something poking <laugh> and I got extremely uncomfortable cuz I didn't know what it was. You really didn't. No. And then once I recognized what it was then there was just this little devious part of me that kind of came out and was like, Oh, I did that. And he got up and walked away and we were just sitting on the couch. We weren't even talking, we were watching, I don't know, MTV music videos or something. I just put my legs in his lap. But we were always like that. We were always very close. I saw him as a brother. But as I got older I started to realize I was no longer being seen that way.
Speaker 0 00:37:09 We're making some broad strokes here. You had a very early introduction into pornography and you had these experiences. Is there anything else you wanna fill in, in between or what happened next where you started to really be aware of sexuality or as you said just recently feeling a little, uh, wicked or mischievous?
Speaker 1 00:37:28 Yeah. Sixth grade I first developed breasts, boobs. I don't know what the proper term for a podcast is, but we're gonna go with breasts. It was like they showed up and immediately I started getting different responses from men. Uh, whether they were older brother, like I said, older brothers or kids in my class, I was always kind of the outcast. In middle school, I was nearly a foot taller than everyone had a lot more musculature because of swimming. Didn't really fit in with the girls. The boys were intimidated by me, so they ostracized me. So middle school was a very lonely period, uh, at school. But on my swim team, that's where I really found my community and my friends.
Speaker 0 00:38:09 What was it like to be a young girl doing girly things and then all of a sudden these things appear on your chest and there's a palpable difference in the way that people treat you?
Speaker 1 00:38:18 I think there's a small identity crisis that happens, especially when you're seen as the athlete or the tomboy. You're kind of stripped away from that. Once certain physical additives come in, you're not able to tie yourself to that identity anymore. There was a point where I was really rejecting my femininity because of the difference and how I was being treated at such a young age and I didn't put it together then. But looking back, that's kind of how I see it.
Speaker 0 00:38:49 So how are you being treated differently, specifically when you were in school versus out of school? Like hanging out at the mall and stuff?
Speaker 1 00:38:57 God, where I'm from, the malls are very aggressive. Men are not afraid to call out to you, say something lude, uh, follow you from store to store, not to do anything, you know, detrimental or anything scary. But it was just the moment that my body started to change, the curve started to come in, the baby fat started to leave, men just started responding to me different. And it didn't matter what I wore, how I did my hair. I wore my hair back every day. I didn't really wear girly clothes. It was mainly athletic shorts and a t-shirt every day, byproduct of swimming. But it was also what I was comfortable in. I didn't really want to be girly. I didn't like wearing flowers or dresses or pink because of what I saw as femininity, as being seen as something weaker. And now I know that to not be true. If anything, it's the opposite. But I really didn't like the change in how I was being treated. For example, you know, I would get into be in conversations with guys and this is more so in high school and they would be looking at my breasts, not at my eyes. And so what I
Speaker 0 00:40:05 Would do, not just cuz that was where their eye level was
Speaker 1 00:40:07 <laugh>. Well, for some that was true. And I, you know, as much as I, I disliked creating my neck as much as the next person, I did at least expect that amount of decency. But for most guys it just wasn't true. And you know, I denied it for so long and then there came a point where I realized I can use this to my advantage. But regardless, there was no point of appreciation and contentment as either a tool that I used and when I wasn't using it, I just put it away.
Speaker 0 00:40:37 So you didn't make any effort to be more or look more feminine from what age to what age?
Speaker 1 00:40:43 I would say from sixth grade to about my sophomore year of high school, it was pulled back hair. I had told all my friends since I was young, I wanted to shave all of my hair off. I hated having long hair. My mother would never let me, but never wore florals. It was gym shorts and a t-shirt and a really tight sports bra.
Speaker 0 00:41:08 So you pretty much looked like a tomboy or maybe even a lesbian.
Speaker 1 00:41:11 I definitely got that a lot in middle school. That was called the D word a lot. Any lesbian slur that you can think of? I was definitely called that many times where it was written and put in my locker.
Speaker 0 00:41:23 So from about sixth grade until sophomore year in high school you behaved very neutral, very, very neutral, not feminine, didn't act girly, and you still managed to get sexual attention from men.
Speaker 1 00:41:37 That's what really surprised me. It wasn't at school. I was very undesirable at school. But in the pool at, at my, at my swim pool, uh, yes. Are you being Polish stop at school? I was very undesirable probably because of my appearance and my height and I was also just a very cold person. Very cold. Then I would go to practice and it was like night and day. Immediately I had friends, you know, the guys would always talk to me mainly because we were, you know, all swimming in the same lane for two hours. But yeah, it was definitely a very different response. Like my guy friend coming up and saying, Oh, she's beautiful. Or a lot of guys on my team, once I got on iPhone really wanted my number texting, you know, before and after practice, you know, just cute middle school things like, are you coming to practice today? I would say yes. And they'd be like, Oh right. Like, oh, <laugh>
Speaker 0 00:42:30 So cute. So then how old were you when you had your first kiss or someone wanted to take things further with you, with your consent?
Speaker 1 00:42:37 Uh, with my consent. Well, my first kiss was a boy on my swim team Who's Flamingly gay? Uh, everyone knew it, but a couple boys were making fun of him. So I offered to give him a kiss just to dispel. And he false rumors being how
Speaker 0 00:42:53 Nice of you?
Speaker 1 00:42:53 Yeah. Yes. I very thoughtful. I can understand the, the fear with being judged for who you are and you know, he wasn't at a point in his life where he was comfortable enough to come out. So I didn't mind doing that for him. How old
Speaker 0 00:43:07 Were you?
Speaker 1 00:43:09 16.
Speaker 0 00:43:10 Great. Did you ever find yourself attracted to women or girls?
Speaker 1 00:43:15 I think that's always so interesting. I remember driving home from practice one day with my mom and telling her mom, I think I like girls. And she was, she said, Oh, well, okay, that's cool. Uh, she didn't know what to say. She really just ummed and odd and we just forgot about it and I never said it again. And I will never forget the feeling of shaking after I told her that. Because when I was in the locker room, I was watching some of the other girls get dressed and changed and I immediately felt guilty and wanted to look away. And that just kind of kept happening. It was this constant like, Oh, I need to give them respect. Like that's, I shouldn't look. That's whatever. Even if someone was having a conversation with me, we're all girls. We're in a locker room. Any girl that's an athlete listening definitely knows how, um, free and open we all are.
Speaker 1 00:44:09 And I felt shy, I felt bashful. I was very nervous to look at girls naked. And it was kind of this point in sixth or seventh grade, I would say, somewhere in, in those years, that's when I kind of put it together that I'm attracted to women as well. So then when I started getting called queer dyke, et cetera at school, it started to really hit home because I realized, oh gosh, they've got me figured out. You know, they've, they've got me. Um, and it, I don't know, it just put me in a very uncomfortable situation for a good three years. And from there, you know, I went on Google, I'm looking at what lesbian looks like and you see the butch, you know, dress and apparel type and I'm like, okay, well I I don't really identify with that. I don't have to identify with this. I'm kind of just doing my own thing. But I certainly don't want to wear dresses and get any more male attention. If
Speaker 0 00:45:04 There was, let's just say a phenomenal man sitting right in front of you. Mm. And a phenomenal woman sitting in front of you equal in their beauty and the way they make you feel and the way their heart is, all things equal. Do you find yourself more attracted to one versus the other?
Speaker 1 00:45:20 No. I think presented with those two options, I would simply ask to have them together if they're open. <laugh>,
Speaker 0 00:45:27 Nice looking at you now, right here in front of me. I think anyone would say you're an extremely feminine looking woman. The way you dress, the way you look, your poise, your grace, the way you carry yourself. You've done some modeling as well. Tell us about that transition going from being a tomboy into the woman that you are now, because sort of a long time, but there's only been a few years in between those moments.
Speaker 1 00:45:51 I think it was when I finally started to accept male attention that the femininity came out. I don't think it's, I think it's more correlation related than causal. And maybe because I started incorporating it, integrating my femininity, uh, into how I carry myself in my day to day. It's because, you know, it, it's why I started getting more male attention. You know, I started going to therapy. I had some trauma when I was younger that I needed to heal from, which I think is what birthed this whole hide my femininity, see femininity as a weakness, that kind of thing. So once I was able to heal from that, it was super easy to integrate slowly throughout time my femininity, how I carry myself as a woman and really being proud of that and what that is and what that looks like.
Speaker 0 00:46:38 Yeah, this is great. You know, in terms of eye contact, a lot of people find it daunting, but you exist in a very interesting place. It seems like you neither suck it in, are thirsty for it, hungry for it, looking for it all the time, wanting constant attention from men. They don't make all these online thirst traps. You're classy and well put together at the same time. You don't shy away from male attention or male eye contact either. In fact, you're very comfortable holding it. And that's almost something I haven't come across very often, which is someone who's so comfortable around boys, men, male attention. In fact, I think you even go out of your way to acknowledge men, say hi to them, be friendly, see how they respond to you, and maybe even start conversations around it and do social experiments.
Speaker 1 00:47:27 So I think that ties back into my young life being on a co-ed team, being surrounded by male friends in high school. They were easier to get along with, Less judgemental than girls. While I was on this journey of rediscovering my femininity, I still kind of dressed like a dude. Nerdy boys are far less judgemental than, uh, the girls at my high school. So I, I banded with them going to Dungeons and Dragons game nights and playing video games. It was very easy. But I think with that I got a lot of experience talking to men and I got the jocks on my swim team and then I got the nerdy guys at school. So I got a really wide base to talk to on a consistent basis. From there, my parents would always have friends over, were a big host family, so they would always have friends over. I would sit, talk, hang out. I was never afraid talking to adults, male or female men of just never really made me uncomfortable. Especially not eye contact. I think it was always a part of my upbringing to make direct eye contact when someone speaks to you regardless of who they are, what their age is. So eye contact's always been pretty steady in my life.
Speaker 0 00:48:42 Yeah, it's a rare quality.
Speaker 1 00:48:44 I do notice that even when I'm talking to certain women or I introduce female friends to male friends, there's this very darting glance that women give or it's very indirect, it's very nervous. Um mm-hmm <affirmative>, you know, it's, I call it the Medusa effect almost. It's like, oh my gosh, if I look directly at you, who's gonna turn to stone? Is it me or is it you? And the way that a lot of my female friends have acted in the past, uh, definitely seems like they're the one to turn into stone.
Speaker 0 00:49:12 Well, I couldn't agree more with that. Yes, it's very darting and very elusive and it seems to stick with women for many, many, many years into their future. This very nervous, very uneasy darting look. But let me ask you this cuz this is probably why they're doing it. How do you deal with the fact that you have no problem looking at men directly in their eyes, but most men take this as a sexual invitation? Well, either you're intimidating men, very probably, and they're looking away, or for confident ones, they're probably thinking, Oh, this is a sign.
Speaker 1 00:49:43 Yes to the intimidation. Oftentimes men my age, if I make direct eye contact with them immediately, they look away immediately. I'm not gonna, you know, it's if we're playing chicken, I'm not gonna back down and women the same way. But I treat them equally. And I think that's what throws people off. I treat women and men typically very similarly in terms of respect. And when I'm first meeting someone, it's not like I have the female and mail mode.
Speaker 0 00:50:11 Right, Right. Now let's say you're talking to a man who you're not attracted to and you're not interested in mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but you're making this damn good direct eye contact. Mm. Does that not get you into trouble? Isn't that confusing for men? All
Speaker 1 00:50:25 The time. Okay. All the time. I from the south, and so we say bless their soul because it's really hard. I think there's nothing wrong with eye contact. I think it's something very polite and respectful that every human being is worthy of and deserves in a conversation. I find it very troubling that men think it is such a direct invitation into having sex. But I think the reason why is because so rarely are they given it. Well.
Speaker 0 00:50:53 Correct. I can see why it'd be frustrating. But for men it's tricky because women don't come right out and say, Oh, you look like someone I'd like to have sex with right now. We have to solicit it, draw it out, entice women will stand nearby or look you directly in the eyes or giggle or get loud or get quiet. But generally, one of the safest and easiest ways to let someone know you're interested is with eye contact. So I think it's a really tricky line because how do you just be friendly and cordial and respectful with people, which is something that I believe we should all do. Because sadly, I think what a lot of women do now is they just flat out ignore men. They don't even look, I can't tell you how many thousands of times I've seen this, where a woman passes by another man anywhere at a mall shopping center and is just flat out ignoring them. They're too close. The proximity is too close for her not to notice or look up. But she doesn't, And it's not that you gotta acknowledge every man who passes you by, but when you ignore everyone and all men start feeling ignored, then that's where they get more aggressive or obnoxious in their pursuit. So you say, Well, why do women do this? And they say, Well, if you look at men for more than a second, they think you're interested.
Speaker 1 00:52:00 But my question, I guess my question to you is that if there was this wipe, the slate clean, everybody just looked at each other, would there still be a biological reason as to why men see eye contact as an invitation? Would there still be that, okay, this is like she's looking at me, this is an invitation, Let me take my chance and go. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:52:22 Well, that's a phenomenal question that I think the whole world needs to hear the answer to. Because if I could wipe the slate clean and clear it up for everyone, I would say eye contact is an invitation for both men and women. And women know this. Women know when they're looking at a man in a way that's sensu or alluring. And men should know as well when they're looking at a woman, what sexual alluring is. However, being a good Samaritan of fellow citizen, a citizen of the world, I think it's mandatory in society in all societies for people to get along to do the proverbial hat tip or greeting or top of the morning to you, or just a friendly acknowledgement that your neighbor or the person you're passing by on the street exists, not in unsafe, dangerous places, but for goodness's sake. Again, shopping malls, coffee shops, yoga studios, malls, walking down a Brighton, sunny street at a parade, There's a dog park near where I live.
Speaker 0 00:53:17 And it's amazing to see all the animals interacting with one another. And yes, even some of the humans do talk. And then occasionally you get this really fussy woman who comes by really, really in her own space. She's got sunglasses on. She looks annoyed, she's crossing her arm. She doesn't wanna be bothered by everyone, and it kind of sucks attention towards her as opposed to the friendly, jovial nature of everyone else who's just saying hello and existing. For me, it's a very big thing. I can't emphasize enough how important a friendly greeting is to living beings. If new life like an alien life form appeared on this earth, would you attack them? Would you try to kill them? Would you ignore them, or would you try to greet them in some way? I also think what we use to identify whether someone's a threat or not, whether they're friendly or not, whether they're vulnerable or not, is eye contact.
Speaker 0 00:54:06 And when girls run around darting their glance all over the place, ignoring everyone, they just wind up telegraphing a lot of vulnerability as opposed to confidence, which is very important for women too. Right now, you and I are looking in each other's eyes and there's um, sort of a comfort and friendly air going on. But one of the things that I teach in clinic is if I just stop talking for five short seconds, instantly, even in one second, it becomes a very different thing. You can feel it in your body differently. So I think it would be neat to teach body language in school, and I think there should be a course on how to learn if Oman is interested in you or not, which you can probably actually find on my podcast. But imagine a world where men and women can get along and we could enjoy our commonalities and celebrate our differences. And it all had to do with a simple version of eye contact and salutation. Wow. If we all spoke a common language, verbal or not, there'd be so many less instances of pain because frankly, most women do the exact same thing when they like someone as they do, when they don't, they look away, they get shy, they've hurt their gaze, they stammer or get a little flustered. Very
Speaker 1 00:55:18 Aw, that's how men are always with me. Yeah,
Speaker 0 00:55:21 Very similar behavior. But if they knew to do something like even let's just say it was a wink, a silly wink, it's like, Oh, okay, there's an indicator of interest that I can move in on.
Speaker 1 00:55:31 I would agree. So as a man, eye contact not included as an option. What is the best way for a woman to show you that they're interested?
Speaker 0 00:55:42 I'm not entirely sure that there's a healthy way to show it in person without eye contact because of the risk in how unfortunate it looks when a woman is not looking at you and interacting with you.
Speaker 1 00:55:55 But I feel like Youi kind of talked about it, raised eyebrow, different facial features, all things that enhance the message and make it clear.
Speaker 0 00:56:07 I think I know where you're going, and for sure there's this sort of demure, shy, I don't know, it kind of conjures up a vulnerability you'd see in like Marilyn Monroe or like someone batting her eyes or looking away shyly or looking down, but smiling a little and lingering or pouting her lips. I'm sure there's a number of things that you can do for sure, but I still think a little bit of eye contact is necessary because if someone's really uncomfortable, they're not going to be making eye contact with you. Imagine I'm standing here in a girl scoots over and she likes me and she's standing near me, but she's given me no eye contact, no indicator of interest other than just being in my proximity. 50% chance she's gonna be annoyed because I'm bothering her. 50% chance. She's gonna be like, Oh, I did that on purpose.
Speaker 0 00:56:54 This worked out well. I'm just imagining all the lawsuits that men have to face for making moves on women who never looked at them. I wasn't even looking at this guy and he had the audacity to come over and touch my elbow. If I look away from you right now and stare at the wall and give a shy or playful or flirty smile, you have no idea if I'm doing that for you or not. But once you've established some form of connection, maybe you have each other's number or you've talked a few times or seen each other a couple times, and you start seeing some indicators of interest, like finding things amusing that you say, making herself or her schedule available for you, being receptive to your ideas, being on your program, wanting to spend more time around you, offering herself to you sexually, sexually intimately, then I think you can get away with less eye contact. But I think especially in today's day and age where it's very inappropriate, it seems to make physical contact with someone to just reach out and put your hand on a woman's shoulder or elbow and say, Hey, I just wanna tell you that blah, blah, blah. I think that has to start with eye contact. And then you gotta start the reading. Like, is she opening her body language to you continuing the conversation, or is she pretending that she has to go?
Speaker 1 00:58:01 So I agree with all of those things. I think it that those are all very clear indicators of interest, a woman's interest. Um, but you said in conjunction with eye contact conveys the message, but eye contact without any of those other enhancements can just be what it is in my opinion, which is eye contact.
Speaker 0 00:58:23 I do think you can convey intention with only eye contact and not a lot of other enhancements, but go on.
Speaker 1 00:58:29 So I think the enhancements of erased eyebrow or I think the eyes convey a lot of different emotions, whether it's sad, happy, turned on, excited. I think the enhancements from the rest of the facial features really do convey the message of whether or not a woman is sexually interested in a
Speaker 0 00:58:48 Man. Yes, Well, certainly just blankly looking in someone's direction does not convey interest. I would agree with you on that. You need sort of the emotional component behind it.
Speaker 1 00:58:58 So even when you're approaching, let's say, a barista at a coffee shop, if she makes eye contact with you, you see that as an invitation?
Speaker 0 00:59:05 I don't, but I think when a woman looks a man in the eyes, it feels so good to him that there's sort of an instant pleasurable experience that he's feeling. And I think that makes him feel, Oh, she must be interested. And I think eye contact is often misconstrued as interest. Now, to your point, there are dozens of facial features and expressions that you can make to symbolize and signify interest. I just believe they tend to be paired with eye contact. And I would even say a serious look is sometimes very sexual or very sultry. When women are being sexual, if you look at almost any photo on Instagram, they're hardly ever smiling. They're pouting or their mouth is gaping open, or they're narrowing their lips or squinting their eyes. It's a serious look that's sex. And then on top of it, doing what? Usually making eye contact, not being coy and looking away. Now, me personally, if I walk into an establishment and someone just looks in my direction, I know she's not flirting with me simply because she's looked me in the eyes or is being friendly. I do think there is this social obligation to be friendly, say hello, and make eye contact if for instance, you work in retail.
Speaker 1 01:00:11 And I agree, as someone who has worked in customer service jobs and retail jobs or you're working face to face with people I contact is huge. I think it's just a part of basic decency and respect. But I think a lot of women are really afraid of making direct eye contact with men in any sort of capacity because they're afraid of being hit on.
Speaker 0 01:00:32 Well, that's exactly what I'm talking about too. And whose responsibility is it to hit on who? And are both people hitting on each other, in which case men can just relax a little bit and not take everything as an invitation. But the big thing here is sex for men is so, so hard to get that they have to use every tool they can possibly find to figure out how to get it. And you need to start pairing down, Okay, well the one who likes me does this. The one who doesn't does that. What are the similarities between women who have interest in me? And you have to find ways to make that work. And what's the first step, if not to figure out is she friendly and isn't friendly, someone who can look at you in the eyes? Does she look at me? Right? Because the opposite of that would be cold, distant, unfriendly, and no eye contact.
Speaker 0 01:01:17 And then is there any woman out there who believes in love at first sight, or that you can meet someone on a whim and it doesn't have to be on a dating app or at a bar. Isn't it nice to bump into each other on the street? And one thing led to another? How is that fantasy going to happen if someone doesn't stop and approach you? Sometimes it feels like women really don't want to acknowledge how absolutely magical and natural interaction can be of spontaneously walking into your chiropractor's office and meeting someone out of nowhere. And what a great story that is. It's got Meet Joe Black, written all over it. That magical, passionate, spontaneous interaction is one of the juicies parts of life.
Speaker 1 01:01:58 Driven by eye contact.
Speaker 0 01:02:00 Yes, ma'am.
Speaker 1 01:02:01 Flirtatious eye contact.
Speaker 0 01:02:02 That's right.
Speaker 1 01:02:03 Which I think is something that both sexes struggle with. If I'm at a farmer's market, let's say, and I'm purchasing carrots from a very nice gentleman, I'm going to look at him with a very nice smile and say, Thank you for these carrots that is not, Hey, please take me home and give me your
Speaker 0 01:02:22 Carrot. Especially an orange one. That
Speaker 1 01:02:24 Is not <laugh>, that is not what I am asking for. But I think I'm just giving him human decency. Unfortunately, I don't think a lot of my other female counterparts are going to be comfortable enough because of the fear of men taking that running with it, and then they're uncomfortable. Also, you know, I would love to meet someone at a bar. I would love to meet someone on the side of the street, but for women, it's the safety thing. Safety and security is such a huge thing for us.
Speaker 0 01:02:55 Even if he's got the rainbow carrots,
Speaker 1 01:02:57 Even if he has rainbow carrots.
Speaker 0 01:03:00 Okay, listen, my argument to this, because you're right, eye contact can make women uncomfortable and nervous, especially if it's not someone they're attracted to. Oftentimes women are not trying to telegraph any kind of interest. They're just trying to exist in the world. Okay? That's the case I think that you're making, except for that one little fact that there seems to be a biological imperative that men must approach women. You might even say for the survival of our species, women do not approach. I understand you may, you're the exception to the rule <laugh>, and plenty of people listening, I'm sure you've gone up to one guy once, have been like, You're really cute. Or you should go talk to my friend. This is not what happens on a day to day basis. Go to any mall and just watch. Do you see any woman stopping to talk to a strange man ever? They're getting anxious, nervous, uncomfortable. They don't know what to do it themselves. Even when they like someone, they get giggly and shy and start laughing and get really, really goofy. They get all kinds of frazzled and worked up. It seems to me like women are not made or built, unfortunately, because I wish to open, pursue, follow chase, follow up with bother, continue to nudge men until they get what they want. I
Speaker 1 01:04:09 Like that word nudge.
Speaker 0 01:04:11 Yeah, it's a good one.
Speaker 1 01:04:12 Definitely not a nudger. I would say I'm more of a direct pinpoint. Target. Affirmative. It's definitely much more ballistic, uh, and militaristic. I think my approach,
Speaker 0 01:04:24 You in the elevator, you're coming home with me
Speaker 1 01:04:27 Maybe, but I also think that's a byproduct of my height and my stature. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and how my presence and overall figure commands a room.
Speaker 0 01:04:36 Yeah. It's different. It's,
Speaker 1 01:04:38 I don't, I'm not given much other choice.
Speaker 0 01:04:39 You're not a five foot tall, 100 pound little wispy thing.
Speaker 1 01:04:43 Now, putting myself in that perspective, if I was, yes, eye contact is really terrifying. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, especially if it's from a man who's six one broad shouldered and looking at me directly in the eye, that's terrifying. Yeah. Even if I'm five, okay, let's say five two, and a guy who's five nine or five 10, that's still intimidating because as women, we always have to think about the security and the safety factor. I would love to grab coffee with someone that I just meet randomly on the street, but unless I know him from my friend or from someone else who can verify the fact that he's not a serial killer, I'm probably not gonna go get that coffee.
Speaker 0 01:05:22 And you're right to feel that way. But it's also a shame because that's really where the juicy stuff can be, as you kind of know. But fear usually overrides the potential of the possibility. And Ashley, you're not wrong. The argument you never know is valid. <laugh> so silly. He could be a serial killer,
Speaker 1 01:05:40 Or he could be the future love of your life.
Speaker 0 01:05:42 Well, now you're speaking my language,
Speaker 1 01:05:44 But because of the fear, it doesn't matter,
Speaker 0 01:05:46 Right? So it's just hard. But listen, ladies, if you wanna change that, then I think you would have to be the ones who regularly approach men yourself. You be the one who's direct and who opens with a verbal opener or a compliment, or you get right front and center of someone and let them know how you feel about them. Then it doesn't all fall on the man to do all the interpreting, all the chasing, all the following up. We do that because most women don't point themselves in our direction very often. And then you'd also be tasked with the wonderful idea of handling constant rejection
Speaker 1 01:06:24 And handle rejection. Ladies, I have been rejected. I wouldn't say a lot. <laugh>, very rarely as women.
Speaker 0 01:06:32 Yeah. Big surprise here
Speaker 1 01:06:34 As women, woman to woman moment, you won't get rejected that much. I'm gonna be really real with you. Yeah.
Speaker 0 01:06:40 It's a real woman. Don't get rejected.
Speaker 1 01:06:41 You won't be rejected. Often, very rarely.
Speaker 0 01:06:45 Whatever you consider to be the most unattractive woman, she will get rejected 100 times less than the most attractive man.
Speaker 1 01:06:53 Agreed. Yeah. And I think that is because men swallow, Hold on, I'm just gonna chew for a second. Yeah.
Speaker 0 01:07:00 I think women can say, Well, I don't like it when a man approaches me, hits on me, puts all this attention on me. And you can say, Well, it doesn't make me feel safe or comfortable. It doesn't make me feel good. But frankly, and for the continuation of our species, because somebody has to approach somebody for sex and intimacy and babies to happen, somebody needs to do something. Someone has to initiate. Someone has to look at the other person. Someone has to make sexual contact first. Is it going to be you ladies? I've personally spoken to thousands of women about this in my clinic. I do it every single day, multiple times a day. Very, very few. And I say very few because I'm sure there's an exception out there somewhere. Very few women want to be in a dominant role in the bedroom. Yes.
Speaker 0 01:07:43 And something I hear a lot from clients in their forties, fifties and sixties, even seventies, actually, is that they wish their female partner would spice things up or be more creative or initiate a little bit more. And what that has really shown me is that billions and billions and billions of women have lived their entire lives and passed away without ever having to initiate much at all. Because they're terrified to do it, or it's not natural to them, or it's not what they want, or it doesn't make them feel excited, whatever the reason, it just doesn't happen very often. A woman is a woman and wants to be treated as such. Now, I will make a little caveat here. When you first meet someone, it always feels different. I've been with plenty of women who have been super aggressive, super forward, super dominant with me in the beginning. But over time, it's generally not something that women wanna sustain. I think a lot of it for women deals with the thrill of wanting to be chased, pursued, have attention put on them, get attention. Attention's actually currency. Women wanna be devoured. They want to be seen, they want to be celebrated. Every woman wants to feel beautiful, and they want to get this feeling from men or the people they're attracted to. And the way you get a feeling like that is by having someone chase you, pursue you, approach you, and give you eye contact.
Speaker 1 01:08:56 I think it's interesting. Yes, I am six one, I enjoy lifting weights. I enjoy keeping my life together. I would say I'm a very individual woman. I like being very organized, uh, in meetings. I'm very type A, definitely more dominant. I will, I'm not afraid to speak over and make sure that my ideas are getting, are conveyed and heard that I have no problem in the bedroom. Absolutely not. That is not where I wanna be, Type A. That is not where I want to be dominant. I just want to be held, touched, seen, and felt.
Speaker 0 01:09:33 And this is exactly what I think is so good for everyone to hear. Even with women who are super capable, super independent, high powered, the same rules apply
Speaker 1 01:09:43 As a firstborn girl who was highly involved in academics and in sports, always on top or near the top, you get pitted as this very dominant, very aggressive arch type. And so men typically think, Okay, she's gonna be like that all the time.
Speaker 0 01:10:04 That's right. They always think it carries over to the bedroom.
Speaker 1 01:10:07 She's type A, she's type A everywhere in the pool, in the bedroom, in the classroom, in the meetings, in the fraternity, you know, chapter halls, whatever, everywhere.
Speaker 0 01:10:17 Yeah. This has reminded me that in my practice, I get a lot of female clients who I like to call powerhouse women. They make their own money. They make a ton of money, sometimes even much more than their husbands or boyfriends. They can do it all. They look great. They feel great. They take care of themselves and work out. They're taking care of a family. They're intelligent. They've got degrees, they have their own business. Wow. It's very impressive and beautiful to see, but it creates a very strong polarity in the negative direction for sexuality to exist.
Speaker 1 01:10:46 Absolutely. I've been in many relationships, and this is why I tend to date older now. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> not because
Speaker 0 01:10:53 How old would you be dating? Exactly. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>,
Speaker 1 01:10:56 <laugh>. Um, such
Speaker 0 01:10:59 A
Speaker 1 01:10:59 Good laugh. You know, I, I date anywhere now between 30 to 45, simply because I'm looking for an equal. And it's really hard to find that in a boy my age without them feeling a little bit intimidated in one sector or another, whether it's in the bedroom, in the classroom, in the social circles that I run in, uh, in the leadership positions I hold on campus, there's always this part where they start to feel intimidated and start to feel really insecure and unsteady. And for a woman, that is the most unattractive thing. There is nothing more than that makes a woman wanna leave a relationship more than feeling like she could be doing better. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And once a guy makes that apparent, by showing his insecurities with what she's doing with her life, it makes that inequity so much more clear. It's like, Okay, how, how the fuck do I get out of this?
Speaker 0 01:11:52 Is it safe to say that women find insecurity repulsive in men even though they're wildly insecure themselves?
Speaker 1 01:11:59 I would say it's very safe to say that It's not necessarily even he doubts him, his self worth in terms of his work or in terms of, you know, how he's doing in school. That's fine, because that is all things that we, as human beings will go through in our life. But if a guy comes to me and tells me, Ugh, baby Ashley, I just, I don't deserve you.
Speaker 0 01:12:21 Just, I'm not worthy of you.
Speaker 1 01:12:22 I'm not worthy of you and puts me on this pedestal. There is nothing that makes me wanna leave a relationship more than a guy saying, You're out of my league. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Because the moment a guy says that, it tells me, Okay, that's how he sees himself. I'm no longer looking at an equal. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I gotta go, I gotta go find someone. Yeah. That's going to see themselves as an equal and as my companion.
Speaker 0 01:12:45 Yeah. You're speaking to this concept of polygamy, which is the idea that women marry up or across, they don't marry down, and they tend to not interact with or get in into relationships with, or have sex with men who are, for lack of a better phrase, beneath them in certain ways. If she's got a $300,000 a year job, it's very unlikely she's going to involve herself with someone who works in retail, but also personality traits as well.
Speaker 1 01:13:08 Now listen, I mean, if I'm making 300 K a year, my companion is making 200, but has the confidence better, has more confidence than anyone I know, than it doesn't, than it doesn't matter.
Speaker 0 01:13:24 Confidence is a very elusive subject. And I feel like when it gets spoken about, especially on YouTube and in podcasts and in videos, Oh,
Speaker 1 01:13:34 Sorry, how to say
Speaker 0 01:13:36 It? Yeah. When it gets spoken about, men and women both talk about it like you have it or you don't. You need to get it. If you don't have it, you're kind of screwed if you don't have it. And you need to constantly be portraying this idea of confidence. So what, to you as a very mature young woman, what does confidence look like in a man? Okay.
Speaker 1 01:13:55 There's difference in confidence in the business room, the classroom, and then in a relationship. Confidence in a man is someone that isn't afraid to look you in the eye speaks very intelligently. Now, I
Speaker 0 01:14:12 You really value that.
Speaker 1 01:14:13 I value that highly. So that's definitely where I set my, you know, set my sights on. But I would say it's just mainly how they carry themselves. Shoulders back stands upright, very, I wouldn't say alert, but definitely not just meandering through their day. They walk with a purpose,
Speaker 0 01:14:34 Aware and awake,
Speaker 1 01:14:36 Aware, awake, alert, using discernment and discretion in their day.
Speaker 0 01:14:40 Now what if he's just outta bed and walking to yoga class in the morning, and he's just in a bit of a flow, not very present. How about that?
Speaker 1 01:14:49 I mean, he's just walking down the street, but am I gonna notice his presence? Probably not. Versus if a man's walking to yoga because he's already been up for an hour, brushed his teeth, took all of his supplements, did a meditation, he's already awake, he's already alert, and he's walking in ready to tear up that yoga mat. <laugh>.
Speaker 0 01:15:09 That's a interesting visual.
Speaker 1 01:15:11 Oh, yes. No, <laugh>. I think standing upright shoulders back, but not with this pompous walk of pretentiousness nor the caveman arm swinging thing that I see out of so many guys where they feel like they have, you know, invisible suitcases beneath their arms, and somehow they have to keep their arms, the elbow so much further from the rest of their body, and they just swing like Sasquatch.
Speaker 0 01:15:38 Uh, and it's the pronation of the wrist. Oh my God. Out like this. That
Speaker 1 01:15:42 Has to, Oh, it's, I don't wanna date
Speaker 0 01:15:43 A
Speaker 1 01:15:44 Caveman. A caveman, Yeah. I don't wanna date in Neanderthal. That shows me unintelligence. Or you're overcompensating. And I think this is where I become so difficult for men, because they have to find that right. E equilibrium. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> too much. Oh, you're cocky. You are a narcissist. Women are really, really excited and very, um, liberal, throwing her out. Oh yeah. The word narcissist,
Speaker 0 01:16:09 Like nobody's business.
Speaker 1 01:16:10 I see that a lot in my girlfriends and old girlfriends that used to date men. Um, Oh, he was such a narcissist. He was just such a, he was just such a narcissist. He would just never listen to me.
Speaker 0 01:16:23 If he's an ex, he's probably a narcissist.
Speaker 1 01:16:25 Oh, absolutely. Always.
Speaker 0 01:16:26 Always. And they had no fault whatsoever in
Speaker 1 01:16:28 The never relationship. Never. And I mean, boys are the same. Having both male and female friends. It's always like, Well, she just never, she just never did this. And I use that voice because that is always the tone that they take. It's like this wounded little boy and girls. It's the opposite. Well, he was head upturned, nose to the air. They did nothing wrong versus injured little boy. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, head down, turn voice soft. Well, she just, I just, uh, it's so interesting how the seats turn in a breakup. I think we could also talk about that a lot too, but, uh, confidence in a man, confidence in a man is definitely a very fine line to walk.
Speaker 0 01:17:12 Yeah. You're really, you're really spelling it out well. And I love talking about how confidence lies in the middle, which does not look like being overly militant. It's not machismo, arrogance, aggressiveness. Biggest dick swinging in the room. And I actually think that really good men who are shy, quiet, submissive, softer, sweeter, they see the arrogant guy, whether it's in movies or real life, and they say to themselves, Oh, I don't want to ever be anything like that guy. And the fact of the matter is, men, you won't ever be anything like that guy. Especially since you're way over here on the other side of the spectrum. Even if you try real hard to do so, it's just not going to be in your nature.
Speaker 1 01:17:51 I agree. I think there's definitely a spectrum. I think once you hit that confident mark though, that's when it can be so easily taken into the overconfidence. I think it's, there's a very wide range of submissive, shy man, and it goes from being very meek, timid to just shy, quiet. One would say more reserved. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And then there's confidence. And you can be quiet and confident. I think that's what a lot of guys don't understand, too. You can be very, very quiet. Confidence
Speaker 0 01:18:23 Is
Speaker 1 01:18:23 Quiet. Oh my gosh. I've never, I will never forget the most confident man I've ever seen walked into a room, didn't say a word, but just commanded the room with his presence and Hmm, Drum roll please. His eye contact.
Speaker 0 01:18:38 Yeah.
Speaker 1 01:18:39 How he looked at everyone in the room, especially women,
Speaker 0 01:18:43 Very interesting.
Speaker 1 01:18:44 And it, he carried it with a confidence that wasn't overbearing, but he just surveyed the room, looked, observed, took it all in before interacting with his environment. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> that what that shows a woman is that he is intelligent enough to know when to speak and when to hold his tongue. And not in the sense of, Oh, I shouldn't speak right now, but I have no need to speak right now.
Speaker 0 01:19:13 Yeah. No need to speak. Which can be very sexy. Now. This is an area for men that gets a little muddy to understand, because when girls talk to one another, they can chit chat for hours and hours at a time. I talk about this all the time. When women talk to each other. This way they can enjoy it and get something from it. The idea of a chatty man on the other hand, or a man who talks too much or needs to constantly explain himself is very, very unattractive to women. Someone who steam rolls or who can't stop talking. That's also very unattractive to women, which is very different than being funny or the life of the party, or just having witty remarks to say, or having a charismatic personality.
Speaker 1 01:19:51 I think you can definitely be extroverted as a man. And when you speak, it is funny and playful and even goofy. I, I think a lot of guys think it's unattractive to be goofy. There's actually nothing more attractive to a woman than a good sense of humor. At least my age. We all talk about it when we're all sitting around having our girl chats. The main thing we say, Can he make me laugh? Mm-hmm.
Speaker 0 01:20:17 <affirmative>. Yeah. That's actually been in every woman's dating profile for the past like 20 years. But does it tie into the bedroom for you and your girlfriends once there's some goofiness on the mattress? Can he be giggly and goofy and silly? Or do you want him to handle business?
Speaker 1 01:20:30 There's a difference. I think that's where the intellect and the body language and over overall the tone of the night needs to be read. There are some nights where, yes, you need to handle it and please handle it well. Mm-hmm. <laugh>. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And then there are some nights were, It's okay if we giggle a laugh a little bit.
Speaker 0 01:20:48 Yeah, I agree with this. If the sexual aspect of your relationship is going really well, if you haven't had sex in a long time, though, for couples listening, and then you both constantly get giddy or giggly or playful, that usually is what helps result in a sexless marriage or relationship. I personally have no problem with goofiness, but I've noticed that in relationships, it really dampens a sexual aspect. If you are already having wonderful sex and everything's good in that department, then by all means bring on the humor and the silliness.
Speaker 1 01:21:19 I would agree. I also think that when you're in the beginning stages of a relationship, probably not letting the full goof out is more attractive.
Speaker 0 01:21:29 See, that's an important piece too. There has to be, you gotta establish a little connection and intimacy.
Speaker 1 01:21:36 I think also for women, we appreciate intimacy and sensitivity a lot. Letting that slowly unravel and unfold is very attractive to us. I wanna see the serious, the more seductive side. We wanna be seduced, we wanna be intrigued, we wanna unravel you piece by piece. We don't wanna just have everything out there all at once. Like, tell me all your secrets. Then the that for us means that the chase is over.
Speaker 0 01:22:02 Help the guys listening. Understand to know what you mean when you say not having it out on the table when most men don't put it all out there anyway. Usually men aren't lining up to express all their emotions, put it all out there. In fact, a lot of times men are quiet or more withdrawn. So how do you keep the mystique
Speaker 1 01:22:19 When you first meet a woman and you're talking to her, You know, you're saying quick witted things, you're complimenting her, but nothing of too much depth to be too pointed. It's more so just like, you know, getting to know each other. You go on a couple dates, you share stories, you share backgrounds. And then there gets to this point where, you know, it's like, what else is there? What's the next deepest layer? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, and I think it kind of follows this hierarchy that I am not educated enough to know well enough yet. But in my experience, it typically goes surface stuff. What do you do? What do you like? Then the next layer would be what gives you pleasure? I think that's the next hottest level. And then what makes you feel joy? What makes you feel loved? If you get to that point? And then I think once you get to that joy and love moment, then you start to unravel the goofiness. You get start to unravel the things that bring you joy as a human being, not just as a man or a woman. Okay,
Speaker 0 01:23:17 Let's say you're at the love level and you're really sharing a lot of closeness together, and now the sex that you're having is looking a little different than that initial phase. So maybe it's not the hot, intense, constant sex you used to have. It certainly could be, but what's happening now is more of a love connection, a spiritual connection. There's more maybe love making. I
Speaker 1 01:23:37 Think loving sex can happen in the pleasure stage,
Speaker 0 01:23:43 Totally. But what I mean to say is that lure of the bad boy, the lure of <laugh>, the erotic encounter, the allure of being in Spain or France or Vegas for a week, and uh, you bump into Alessandro or of lair and all of this magic unfolds potentially, but you're married or you have a relationship at home. How do you navigate knowing that you can have the thrill of an adventure with a new man who can take you to new heights of pleasure versus this really nice, consistent, loyal love that you have at home, But what it looks like now, someone who's deeply in love with you and not giving you those exciting emotions, that newness that novelty. They're not blowing your back out every week.
Speaker 1 01:24:29 Well, and I think this is where men need to know, Please, please, from the bottom of our hearts, don't stop blowing our back out for the love of God. Don't stop it. Don't stop. Uh, please, I can't say it enough. Yes, please give us that lovey kissy missionary sex that brings us so close and really displays your love for us. And we hopefully give that back to you and you can see that. But then there is a time, especially again, tying back into being a very type a woman. There just moments where I want to be handled instead of having to handle everything in my day to day. I don't want it. Yeah. Even if we are, I could be totally helplessly in love with you. There's still gonna be a night, maybe once a week, where I just need you to show me how it's done.
Speaker 0 01:25:21 Let me echo those words. They want you to show you how it's done. Women need you to show them how it's done. For everyone listening, please remember we're speaking to a 20 year old woman here a year ago. She was a teenager, and yet already this early on in no uncertain terms, clear as day, it's all spelled out. She knows it in her soul. She knows it in her veins. She doesn't have 30 years of sexual experience. She knows that she's not only looking for some sort of peaceful, Disney, calm, happy ending, but even in relationship, she and most other women want that hot, passionate, deep, intense connection. And then she also let us know that she's actually not interested in leading every intimate encounter in having to be dominant in the bedroom. So then Ashley, let me ask you this. Would you then say that it's the man's responsibility to be sexually creative in the bedroom? To say that today we're going to do it on your hands and knees in front of the full length mirror. Next time we're gonna do it here on the bed, but you're going to be pinned down Wednesday. We're making a movie Thursday, it's on the sofa. Do you think a man needs to think about all these things, plan them out, and know exactly how they'll look?
Speaker 1 01:26:32 That sounds exhausting. So my question to you is, do men find that pleasurable? Do men find excitement and joy out of having these erotic moments planned with forethought?
Speaker 0 01:26:46 To be fair, I think that some men do, but I don't actually think it's a question of enjoyment or not. I think it has to be done out of necessity because someone has to do it. And because if you want to keep a sexual woman, she needs to regularly be stimulated. You know, it's so funny. Everybody thinks it's men who are obsessed with sex and who think about sex all the time. It's actually, in my opinion, women who need the constant variety or newness or excitement to not get bored, to not let the intimacy get stale or dull, similar to how we arrived at why men have to initiate. This is one of those situations where men need to seduce or entice, and seduction takes forethought and creativity because you really have to think through. If she's not going to do it, who's going to put all that forethought into it?
Speaker 0 01:27:36 Who's going to plan it? And things don't happen without planning, even spontaneous things. Someone has to think of them and implement them to get them off the ground. I think for men too, they also risk a woman having an affair because there are millions of men waiting in line to see her differently than you see your wife, who you've known for five or 10 years, or who's born your children. So regardless of whether it's tiring or exhausting or our responsibility to plant it and do it, to me, it's kind of an imperative. He's just got to keep coming up with new and exciting ways to have sex with her. I mean, this is something I'm constantly aware of. If I give a woman an incredible experience and then I repeat that over the next 10 times or 20 times, if every single one of those is incredible, what's actually next?
Speaker 0 01:28:22 Can it be incredible and incredible and incredible and incredible ad in fanum? Especially if you're doing the same things, even if they are incredible? And I think that answer is no. There has to be this constant either planning, changing, evolving, and exploring, or this is why it has to grow into something else like deep, passionate love so that you can have those highs, those moments of incredible, raw, primal sex. But what seems to sustain a relationship is going to be that love and nurturing, but both have to be present. Now, I've always said, certainly a woman could chime in at any time. Come on in, join the party. You can do some of the seduction, the initiating. She can drop hints at dinner time. She could walk into the shower naked or out of the shower. Literally, for most men, all she has to do is come sit on you or take her shirt off and walk by, or put her hands between his legs. But most women find this boring. There's a lot here, but my stance has always been, I love when women initiate. I teach them how to do it. I show them how to do it, I welcome it. But at the end of the day, women just don't want to do this over time. Thanks.
Speaker 1 01:29:33 I think it's give and take. I definitely think initiation because it's been such a male driven thing, given how society has evolved and has been structured throughout the centuries, men are definitely at the forefront for initiating dating sex, et cetera. Nailed it. Yeah. So I think it's a, I think it's a give and take. Like I said, some days we want that kissy missionary sex. The other days we want to be handled. I think with initiating seduction, women can do it very easily. And I think women can realize it's very fun for them.
Speaker 0 01:30:09 Oh my God, it could be so easy
Speaker 1 01:30:11 Putting on nice lingerie, you know? Uh, sending a dirty text to them while they're, they're at work or a picture. There's so many options and it's so fun for us. I think a lot of women get nervous of, Okay, is this too much? Or, I think we worry so much about society judging us within the confines of a relationship, which I find so absurd. Interesting.
Speaker 0 01:30:34 It's absurd because the amount of effort it takes is like nothing. It's so easy to get us going. You could walk by in your panties, you can run a finger over his chest. You can just trace an outline with your finger on our back. You could just give us a long glance. Don't get lost in this nonsense that you have to go buy expensive clothes and do your hair and do your nails, and do your eyes and all of this. It could be so subtle and in a very sweet way. Men are very hungry and thirsty for this. I generally don't find that it is a give and take as much as I would like it to be.
Speaker 1 01:31:04 I would agree. I think also just given size and strength, that makes it more,
Speaker 0 01:31:10 It lends itself.
Speaker 1 01:31:11 Lends itself well, unless a woman is dealing with a man who's very sexually inexperienced. I think that's the one exception in my experience. Whenever I'm with a partner that's not as experienced as I am, I definitely do a more guiding, but I'm not flipping him over. Yeah. I'm not putting him on his hands and knees. There's no forcefulness. It's more so of me just guiding shoulder touch, Hey, move this way. Hey, it's very verbal. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, there's no physicality. I think at least speaking for myself and also for some other women, being moved and being put into different positions can be quite hot and be quite erotic. Especially if I've gone through the time and taken into the consideration of creating this buildup experience of foreplay.
Speaker 0 01:32:02 Yeah, that's absolutely right. Imagine a guy is just laying there on his back and then you dismount and put yourself in another position and then call him over, Okay, I'm ready for you to put it in. Now you can do your, your work. It's devoid of that sexual energy or that masculinity that way to drive the experience forward. And to be clear, I've got no issue with a woman taking the lead or taking control. But this is actually reminding me of another subject that we were talking about earlier and I wanted to explore it with you. I guess we can call it. Ashley takes a strong interest in seducing men herself or teaching inexperienced men How to fuck. Is this correct, Ashley?
Speaker 1 01:32:40 Yes.
Speaker 0 01:32:41 And I think you've also shared that that's a very cerebral experience when you've offered that kind of guidance to your male friends. I think it's something probably that you would enjoy doing temporarily once or twice. And you can speak to this of course, but is this something that you can see yourself doing in a committed relationship or for years and years on end?
Speaker 1 01:32:59 No, I think whoever I'm with, whether it's a short term or more long term partnership, they need to be very open and receptive to learning. And they need to be very attentive and not learn quickly. I'm not, it's not militaristic in the sense of, um, <laugh>. That was a huge y
Speaker 0 01:33:24 Ashley. Okay. Let's spend a few more minutes talking about sexually inexperienced men. I actually do an entire episode on this subject.
Speaker 1 01:33:31 I've listened to the podcast and I think it is very, very informative for not only men, but also women as well. I've had female friends in the past that have come to me really frustrated with having sexually inexperienced partners. And what I just tell them is, you know, it sounds elementary, but we didn't learn how to walk in a day. Sex is something that is very innate to us, but so is walking. You can't expect someone to know how to put it down for you, like a porn star or Christian Gray from the movies or the book if you've read it like a pro their first time. And I will say someone who's had partnerships short term and long term, even boyfriends who were originally virgins, there is nothing really stopping him from becoming a better sexual partner than how you treat him. I would say that is the most important thing. If you guide him lovingly and softly and say, This is how I like it. Not in a childish coddling way, but in a, Hey, this is what I like, or, Oh God, this feels really good. That makes him feel more empowered to do it more often. You feel better, won't have to say it as much, and then it will give him that comfortability and security with you to try other things, new things, even if it's just in his mind. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Speaker 0 01:34:55 That is a really kind and loving approach that you've got there. And maybe one of the only living examples of a woman who is not only willing but actually wants to teach sexually and experience men how to become a better lover. You really just don't hear about this sort of thing very often. Nonetheless. I also wanna add, as we started to say earlier, I wanted to affirm that this isn't something that you'd necessarily wanna do long term for the rest of your life. Is that right?
Speaker 1 01:35:22 No, absolutely not. And the only reason that I've entered these types of relationships is because I really identify myself as a sapiosexual over anything else. I'm attracted to intellect before anything. So if they're really smart, I don't really care where their sexual experience is, I'm willing to teach, collaborate wherever I need to meet them. I'm perfectly fine meeting them there. If it isn't a teaching environment, I guess exchange, I would like there to be full buy-in. They have to be on my level in terms of, Hey, let's make this the best experience that it can be for both of us. I'm loving what we're talking about right now.
Speaker 0 01:36:03 Totally. It's a really good subject. I'm also curious to know that if you'd want this person who you're teaching to at some point, to switch it around and eventually start taking the lead himself. So for instance, let's say you start with all of the sexual power in this dynamic that we're talking about, would you want his power to start increasing without necessarily diminishing or decreasing yours, but having his come up to match your level of sexual intensity? Sure,
Speaker 1 01:36:33 Michelle. I think there are men that genuinely don't have a dominant bone in their body, and for me, that's not gonna satisfy me long term. I don't think that would satisfy many women. But I do know that there are women out there who really do like being with a submissive man as a dominant woman all the time for me, and I think most women that would get exhausting.
Speaker 0 01:36:55 Do you actually know women who like to be with a submissive man all the time?
Speaker 1 01:36:59 Yes.
Speaker 0 01:37:00 Can you elaborate and illuminate us with this unusual detail?
Speaker 1 01:37:04 <laugh>. Okay. So I know women who really like to boss their men around in terms of what's being done to them, uh, what the man can do for them. It's a very self centered Yeah, no, I'm not speaking
Speaker 0 01:37:19 Like it's not fun for the guy.
Speaker 1 01:37:20 Ah,
Speaker 0 01:37:21 Open wide.
Speaker 1 01:37:22 I, sorry. That was attractive. I think they might, I've never heard the male side. It's more so just from the woman's perspective of him being told what to do. Him doing all of the work, giving, giving, giving, giving. She's taking, taking, taking versus opening and receiving. I think there's a very big difference between the two working with sexually unexperienced men. There's a lot of giving on my side and there's a lot of receiving from them. And I think what you're talking about is meeting that balance of, I give in different ways. I'm no longer the verbal teacher of, Hey, do this. Hey, do this. It's now, fuck, this feels really good. Or yes, this is great. Other sexual verbal intonations of, Hey, this is really, you're really rocking my world right here. Versus saying, Okay, do this now. This.
Speaker 0 01:38:25 Yeah, that's really well said. What do you enjoy about teaching someone else how to pleasure you and make you feel good?
Speaker 1 01:38:32 If I care about someone, it's very easy. It's very natural, But I'm also someone who wants to go into a very helpful role in my life. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, if I take the clinical route, certainly not with sex. I definitely, uh, don't wanna pursue that, but I, I really don't mind helping people because at the end of the day, we're all just humans. We're all figuring it out at different points and paces. So what I see is women talking about men in this way, Oh my gosh, Ashley, he just doesn't dick me down like he should. I just, I get so angry. I, it is just so fucking frustrating. He doesn't dick me down like he's supposed to. I'm not sexually satisfied my first question every single time. Have you told him, Just tell him. Um, no,
Speaker 0 01:39:26 No, no, Of course not.
Speaker 1 01:39:28 No, I didn't wanna make him uncomfortable. Well, so, so sorry.
Speaker 0 01:39:32 So he is gotta read their minds. God,
Speaker 1 01:39:33 I, Yes. This is what frustrates me so much. Men can only pick up on so much
Speaker 0 01:39:41 Facts
Speaker 1 01:39:42 When it comes to body language, facial expressions. I can assure you that if you just give a man the silent treatment, he's going to go through the filing cabinet of the million things that he's done over the past week and pick out two dozen that could have potentially pissed you off. And he's just gonna sit looking at all of them, like cards laid out in front of him, trying to figure out, okay, what did I do in this situation? What did I do wrong in this situation? He's gonna get frustrated. You're gonna get even more frustrated because then he starts acting different. There there's no, there's no solution.
Speaker 0 01:40:15 Yeah. In fact, if he starts fishing around for answers, Did I do something wrong? What's the matter? How could I fix this? What did I do wrong? That's likely going to decrease his confidence level, which is a natural thing to have happen. And she's gonna get more turned off, even though she's sort of created this environment for that to happen. If man and a woman are having sex who have been together for a while, and we're talking about women who really want hot, passionate sex, but this relationship sex is just regular, even in the middle of the act, even for couples who've been together, I could almost guarantee she's not telling him what she needs. She's not shutting it down or stopping it, but she's also not asking for what she needs or saying what she needs. She just starts believing, I guess I married this kind of man.
Speaker 0 01:40:59 Now she can still enjoy herself because of course sex does feel good. So we shouldn't say that this goes right over a man's head because it's not necessarily his job to decipher all of this. It does take two. She does need to speak up. But yeah, I can't emphasize enough how important it is for women to speak up about what they may need, even if they're unsure about exactly what it is, just ask for something different. And I don't mean literally say that. Like, can you do something different? I mean, putting into words something else that you think you might like. I don't know what I need right now, but it's not this, Can we switch it up a little bit or do a different position? Or can you just go harder?
Speaker 1 01:41:33 Well, and nothing's gonna decrease a man's confidence quicker than wondering what he did wrong and questioning what he did wrong to piss off his woman. Especially if it has to do with sex. That is so sensitive for men and for women. If the performance isn't good or if that's what they're suspicious is the crooks of the issue, they're gonna go play by play second by second to figure out what they did wrong. Confidence is gonna decrease. The girl's gonna get more pissed off. Call their friend i e me, where then I have to go through, You
Speaker 0 01:42:07 Gotta come through and teach these guys how to fuck. Well,
Speaker 1 01:42:09 It's just the, Hey, Ashley, I, I just, I'm seen as the therapist to everyone in my life and I love it. I love it because I love looking at human behavior and finding motivation and figuring out all the different factors that play into one single action. I think it is so incredible and beautiful. I wish it was coming from a more empathetic place. I definitely wanna help people. It's, I think it's very fulfilling, but I think it is so insanely interesting. How many different factors play into one single behavior? Mm.
Speaker 0 01:42:46 Nice. I'm gonna ask you one more question about being with guys like this. Okay. So you've done this more than once, presumably. Yes. How does a guy in your life even discover or come to know that you'd be willing to do something like this for him? How does that come to be? Is it because they may have known you for a while?
Speaker 1 01:43:03 I just make the right kind of eye contact. I would say. I think that's the easiest way to put it.
Speaker 0 01:43:08 But do you know that they're inexperienced from the beginning? I
Speaker 1 01:43:12 Mean, not always. I think sometimes certain things give it away.
Speaker 0 01:43:17 So you're actually ready if needed to lend a brother a hand. Absolutely.
Speaker 1 01:43:22 Yeah. I think given my upbringing, I have a lot of duality in me. I can be more masculine. I love being feminine. That's where my resting state is now. I appreciate that more. I can be more dominant in the bedroom. I can be very submissive in the bedroom. I can be very dominant in the bedroom. I think it's nice to kind of have this pendulum swing, gives you a wide range of connection with other people, with men that are sexually inexperienced. It always kind of of goes this way. I look at them, they look at me. They're usually too shy to start the conversation. So then being friendly, I start the conversation, Hi, where are you from? What do you do? If we're in school? What's your major? We talk, we chat. I get their interests. And this is men. Please understand. This is me just being friendly.
Speaker 1 01:44:13 This is not me looking to have sex at all. This is me just being a friendly human being. But if we keep talking, the conversation goes, well, then, you know, I start to get a little flirty because I find them physically attractive and conversationally intelligent. If they're conversationally intelligent, that's when I'm in. That's if they're being witty or if they're speaking on things that I'm interested in. You've got me hooked once it gets to the bedroom. I wouldn't say the standards aren't high. For women my age, they're certainly not high. I will say men my age have set the bar really terribly, unfortunately low
Speaker 0 01:44:54 For
Speaker 1 01:44:55 Sex and performance. In terms of, in terms of what they do, it's a very,
Speaker 0 01:45:01 What men do,
Speaker 1 01:45:02 What men do. Um, there's no art to American women. If you want an art to seduction and flirtatious, go to Europe, that is where you will find it. Where women make it much more difficult for a man to go home with them. You know, there's more of a game. There's more of a game of seduction that men need to play. There's a higher level of intelligence that's required.
Speaker 0 01:45:30 Okay. <laugh>.
Speaker 1 01:45:31 I'm just, But boy, <laugh>, You know, I think there's no foreplay. There are some men that I've heard through horror stories of my college girlfriends that say that men are afraid, or I, I say afraid, but men are just like, I don't eat pussy. Like it's beneath them.
Speaker 0 01:45:49 Yeah. This is a really juicy topic, metaphorically and literally that I didn't know existed. A lot of quote unquote, high status and top tier men feel this way as well. Oh really?
Speaker 1 01:45:58 Yeah. Well, any guy in Kappa Sigma, Lambda U, whatever, also thinks that way. And I think it's really funny because a lot of guys think that way, especially in college, and it's because women accept that, which I find absolutely appalled and then just deplorable. But that's my opinion. I think when dealing with a guy that's sexually experienced, if we're tying that back in, I'm not gonna make them go down on me or ask them or try and, you know, ask for the full taste.
Speaker 0 01:46:31 Normal.
Speaker 1 01:46:32 Yeah. Treatment the first time. I think that's so unreasonable.
Speaker 0 01:46:37 A man generally just needs to rinse off for things to be good down there. But there are usually several factors that have to come together for a woman to feel like she's ready for that sort of thing. But a big myth that seems to exist for men is that eating a woman out has to be devouring the whole peach. I think when men think about it, who don't like doing it, they think you have to open everything up and put your tongue everywhere. And don't get me wrong, tongue fucking certainly can be hot from time to time. But when I teach it to someone who doesn't think they wanna do it or thinks they don't like it, I remind them that to give them an enormous amount of pleasure, especially if they're just starting off, they need only focus on the top. And of course, even getting some fingers involved if she likes that sort of thing. But focusing predominantly on her pretty little cl can be extremely rewarding.
Speaker 1 01:47:25 It's one little bean.
Speaker 0 01:47:27 One little bean.
Speaker 1 01:47:28 And the fact that some men not to be detory, if you have never seen pussy before, no shame. If you don't know what the clit looks like or where it is, no shame. It's pretty out there, in my opinion. As a woman who is also eaten pussy, there's really no difficulty in finding it. I talk to a lot of my female friends after they've come home from a night out on the town, they go home with a guy, come back. I'm like, Oh, how was it? We have our table talk
Speaker 0 01:47:57 Because women do talk about everything.
Speaker 1 01:48:00 Everything, yes men, everything from the size of your dicks to the performance, to the noises that you make. We will talk about it. I'm not saying this to make you insecure or uncomfortable, but to just make you aware that we do share all the content. Some women are definitely much more reserved. I think also in a relationship, women aren't giving the full nasty details. At least I'm not. I think that's disrupting the sanctity of the relationship. But yeah, if it's just a one night hookup, it's definitely gonna hit table talk the next morning over coffee or tea. So do be prepared for that. In this table talk, a lot of my female friends will come home. I ask them, Did you finish? It's always my first question because they, I say, How is it? Well, I take that back. My first question is always, How was it? And then they say, Good. And I hate that because then I say, Oh, great, Well, did you finish? And then they go, Pause, audible, pause, look up to the left. Well, and then immediately I am just so offended because once again, the boy from Kappa Sigma Lambda, whatever, cannot figure it out either. It's because eating pussy beneath them, they mysteriously and magically just cannot find the CL in the dark.
Speaker 0 01:49:14 Oh my.
Speaker 1 01:49:15 Or I believe that my female partners aren't being vocal enough about having their needs met because they're so afraid to, because they're so dependent on male attention, or they're worried about the backlash that they're gonna get from men. Yeah,
Speaker 0 01:49:31 It's a real thing. Which is interesting because men are very competitive, Men are very performance oriented. You would think that they'd want to do whatever it takes to be at the top of the proverbial, I don't know, pussy eating pyramid. And men always ask the same questions and make the same remarks. Did I make her come? Did you make her come? How do you make her come so good? Oh, she came so easily. Well, one of the quickest ways to get there for most women is not gonna be through penetration, or if it is, you had better be very skilled with your hands. Nonetheless, guys, penetration feels great, but it's very unlikely that you're going to get her to reach orgasm by that alone.
Speaker 1 01:50:06 Yes, agreed on all of those points. Oh my goodness, were we talking about something? Oh, how men can't find the
Speaker 0 01:50:13 Clip. Such an easy subject to forget. But yeah, for women, like how do you speak up to a man? How do you tell him what you like or where to lick? But the solution is simple. Just look him in the eyes or slow him down, or just put your hand on his head and say a little to the left, a little softer, a little more intense. Use more of your tongue. Flatten your tongue, suck on it, Kiss it, lick it. Or even just taking your own hand and start touching yourself while he's doing it. And by the way, men, if a woman has the confidence to start touching herself while you're inside of her, well number one, that's really exciting. But say you're going really hard, It works for a while, but you can also try slowing down and is something smoother, something that her body can read while she calibrates to your rhythm.
Speaker 0 01:50:54 And then you can work that pacing up again. And then for those women listening who have never touched herself down there, which by the way is more frequent than you think, or maybe you're only masturbating like once every month, or it's an afterthought for you, I'd really recommend starting because expecting a man to know what to do when he doesn't have your anatomy. In fact, I'd love to pass it back to you, Ashley, since you have experience on the matter. Do you just instantly and magically know how to make a woman come in two minutes or is there some exploring that needs to be done? Absolutely
Speaker 1 01:51:23 Not. And there's always this moment of reading her body language. Is she responding? Is, is her body responding to what I'm doing to her? If your focus, hopefully a part of your sexual experiences, both parties leaving, having a good time. If you derive pleasure by giving another person pleasure like I do. And I think most people, I think there are the exceptions where it's just like, I just wanna fuck, You know, I just wanna feel something nut and leave.
Speaker 0 01:51:50 And this is rhetorical, but do you eat all women out the same way?
Speaker 1 01:51:53 Absolutely not.
Speaker 0 01:51:54 Yeah,
Speaker 1 01:51:55 Because I, you know, again, reading body language and it's men too. If I'm giving a guy head or eating pussy, it really doesn't make a big difference. Tying back into the duality, you're reading body language, you're reading their verbal, physical, the just that chemistry, the the expressions that occur between you two when you're in that intimate environment. And going off of that, if they like something, keep doing it. Or if they are not showing a lot of interest, maybe try something different. I will say this very cautiously. There's no problem in lightly exploring. Please do not put a finger in my ass. Oh, that is not what I'm saying. If I'm not responding,
Speaker 0 01:52:39 <laugh>, Oh no, gosh, that took an unexpected turn.
Speaker 1 01:52:43 <laugh>. Right. So I think tying back to women, speaking to women directly, self advocate, because no one else is going to do it for you, not just in the bedroom. That's right. But in any other context of your life, whether it's dating relationships, how you wanna be held in public, how you wanna be held in private touched, Sorry,
Speaker 0 01:53:04 Go ahead. I was gonna say, men are going to come no matter what, ladies, it just happens easy for us. So it really does fall on you to learn about your body. I think there's nothing better you can do for yourself than to know how your body works, how to masturbate, how to make yourself feel great so that when it's actually time to do it with your partner, you have some feedback to give them. And you know what you like.
Speaker 1 01:53:24 Absolutely. And I think once you've explored yourself, you're going to feel so much more confident in communicating with a man what you wanna be done to you. And also I think your sexual experiences as a whole are just going to be so much more fruitful. Enjoy. I am
Speaker 0 01:53:41 We'll wrap this up. Yes, please join us next time, <laugh>, where we resume with Ms. Ashley on how to properly pussy as a woman or a man. Yeah, I
Speaker 1 01:53:50 Gotta go. <laugh>,
Speaker 0 01:53:51 I'm out and scene. Thanks everyone for tuning in and listening to this very unusual, very fun episode. I hope you've enjoyed this exploration with us. I also wanna say, as a sidebar, if you're young and listening to this, I hope you notice how articulate and open and well expressed that Ashley is. I think that's a quality that's really admirable and worth aspiring to. So often in our society for the last 20 plus years, there's been this dumbing down as if speaking intelligently is unattractive or expressing yourself in the most minimal way possible by speaking in emoji or abbreviating words or writing three word sentences is somehow acceptable or attractive. But friends, there's actually no limit to your intelligence. And being able to know what you want, express yourself clearly put ideas and sentences together that are super coherent. These are all wonderful skills. So I hope Ashley has inspired you in one way or the other.
Speaker 0 01:54:45 It's a bit of a rare thing that we do interviews on the Closeness podcast, I think there's maybe 10 or 12. So if you like this and you wanna hear more, of course, press subscribe either on YouTube or any other platform of your choice, Spotify, Google, iHeart, Ds, or Apple, Tesla, et cetera, et cetera. If you wanna hear more interviews, just simply do a search for interview within the closest podcast and we'll all come up for you. And thanks for tuning in. You can follow our Instagram at Crave Closeness or my personal Instagram at elegant aro. And if you're really ready to make the magic happen, you can always come in to see me for an intimacy coaching session by visiting the website crave closeness.com and filling out an intake form. Thanks for listening, and have a great day.
