Part 3: Who should pay for first dates and beyond?

Speaker 0 00:00 Hello everyone and welcome back to the final episode of who should pay for the first date and beyond. My name is Tari. Let's get started. I can't help but begin and end by sharing a sentiment about how I feel about love, money, relationships, and you're going to hear a lot of polarizing, strong, really intense ideas in the upcoming podcast. And so I want you to know I do believe in love. I do believe that people can do things out of the kindness of their own heart. I do believe that we don't always have to be motivated by secondary gain or to get something from someone else. I believe that we care for others and we can also care for strangers. I believe it can feel good to help someone who we don't know and who we aren't sexually attracted to. I think men can help men. Speaker 0 00:50 Women can help women and women can help men. And I don't believe we have to live in a world of men exclusively taking care of women. I value humanity, I value goodness, manners, respect, care, consideration, and I hope you'll carry those things in the back of your mind as we go through this very intense episode together. If you've listened to previous episodes plus this one, you're probably looking at something in the order of four hours of content talking about who should pay in money, so it's no small subject. Congratulations. If you've made it this far and you make it to the end of this episode, I hope so far you've started to solidify some new opinions and conclusions about how you feel about money and dating and money and relationships. Hopefully you've spoken about it to your significant other husband or wife, other friends of yours, and hopefully in speaking to different people about it, you realize how differently we all feel about money and maybe you've even felt inspired to come to new choices and new conclusions with how you interact with the opposite. Speaker 0 01:46 Sex. Money is one of the most polarizing topics on the planet right there with sex. It's not something we're ever all going to come to an agreement on. I think it's really a question of lining up with the kind of people you want to spend time with and the kind of people you want in your life and regardless of how sexually attracted you might be to someone who doesn't share your same beliefs. Knowing when to say no on both parties end versus tolerating someone with a completely different philosophy and that's difficult when attraction gets involved because you can be attracted to someone you hate. You could be attracted to someone with belief systems that absolutely do not resonate with your own. I said it before and I'll say it again at the end of this episode, I think I can lay out the most compelling, believable, practical, logical, rational arguments for who should pay and why and people will still choose to believe not just what they believe because that's how it's been since childhood, but what they believe suits them most. Speaker 0 02:45 My own sister always likes to come back to the words. It's all about perspective. It just depends on what you believe and what your value systems are. And on the heels of that, this too is going to be an extremely polarizing episode. I want to start by sharing an important quote from a very close friend who allowed me to repeat this on the podcast, and I'm not gonna say anything about her to reveal her identity other than the fact that she's a very stunning and beautiful woman on the outside, but also on the inside. She's an incredibly sweet, loving, kind and generous woman. In this quote, she's talking about her mother, and I don't want to reveal too much, but it is based on her mother's belief that men are obligated to pay for women on the first date, regardless of whether a woman is even interested in him, whether she's going to see him again, talk to him again, or even ever interact with him again. Speaker 0 03:33 I think it really sets the tone for everything we're going to talk about. And I think it also does a lot to clear up a very common female response that if a man doesn't believe what a woman believes about his obligation or responsibility or duty to provide or pay, that then therefore he's deemed as someone who just doesn't get it or who's clueless or lost or isn't a real man or any number of other rude and inconsiderate insults. So I was telling my friend about this new episode, I'm recording the one that you're listening to now, and I was talking to her about expectations, obligations, making someone feel special, providing, and it inspired her to share this. So without further ado, here was her message to me. I was listening to your messages and I completely agree. My mom very much so expects it and she would be so turned off if a guy expected her to pay. Speaker 0 04:28 My mom is a wonderful person, but that quality always drives me crazy and it's so unattractive to me. I never wanted to be like that. Seeing it from her. We've gotten into many arguments about it. Actually. She makes excuses and says, guys love to do this for her. Well, yeah, sure. If they think they're going to fuck you after. A lot of times she doesn't even want to have sex with the guy and the times I've been in this position, it does make me feel personally like a prostitute. Ha ha. I've never wanted a man to expect anything because they've paid for me first dates and who's paying is one of the most awkward things. To me, money is always an uncomfortable subject as well. What are they expecting? If they pay, if I pay or offered to pay or half it, sometimes the guy even gets offended or feels like your friend zoning him or not appreciating the gesture. Speaker 0 05:22 I'm so happy you're doing this podcast. She continues. So my mom is a very giving person. She really is, and she made sure that I didn't grow up to be selfish in any way, so it was always crazy to me that she does this. I feel like she takes advantage of men. I feel so bad for some of them. She's a very beautiful, funny, charismatic and smart woman. She had a great career and does very well for herself. She gets so much attention from men and men really do flock to her. I think it's always been this way, but for her she gets gifts, free food and spoiled all the time, so she expects it, but often she'll go on one date with a man and never see him or talk to him again. So at that means is she's getting free food hookups all the time. Speaker 0 06:15 I'm always getting after her. I feel so bad for these men. My mom and I, well my mom especially has a very unique background and it's a lot to get into over a message, but I do understand why or how she started doing this. I just find it very unfair and selfish. Actually. I think a lot of reasons why I am the woman I am today is because I didn't want to be like my mother. I don't know if it's an old fashioned mindset, but to her the man needs to provide. She would always tell me to find someone that can provide for me financially and always made it seem like that was the most important quality in a romantic relationship. Why? No way. I don't want to rely on anyone, so it made me want to work harder not to depend on anyone I like that I can provide for a man and quote, Hmm, that's something you could listen to a few times. Speaker 0 07:14 It touches on so many subjects and I'm sure it touched you as well. Plus what's nice is you know exactly what kind of man or woman you are. When you hear these words, some of you will convince yourself or believe that she doesn't understand. You might project that she doesn't get it. She's selling yourself short. She doesn't know how to play the game. She doesn't know how to manipulate, cheat, take advantage or make things work in her favor. Everyone else be damned or in some cases you might think she has lower standards. Others of you will listen to this and have heard her heart radiating in shining through her desire to be independent and you have respect for that. You admire that quality and you might say to yourself, you would never do that to a man or you never want to be like that. Speaker 0 08:00 Some of you understand that by leaving money out of the equation, you can also leave the expectation for sex out of the equation. Some of you still will believe that money and sex are just forms of energy and that we exchange this energy whether we know it or not like it or not, or intend to or not. And because some men can't provide sex, they provide financial resources and because some women cannot provide financial resources, they provide sex, whereas others of you still have absolutely no problem with entitlement receiving taking and you think it's your birthright to receive all number of gifts, financial reward and money from your male partner. So that powerful quote sets the tone for this podcast and now we're going to get into all those subjects in more. I hope you enjoy. We're going to start by introducing the idea of gifts and gifting, what it means to expect them and receive them, and also the element of surprise and how part of the fun in receiving a gift is the novelty of it. Speaker 0 09:02 The receiving of something new and special. When someone does something special for us or gives us a gift and it takes us by surprise, endorphins often get released. We love it. We can't believe it. We feel those good feeling emotions of receiving something, but what really makes a difference is when it's unexpected and you didn't know it was going to happen. There's something special about being surprised, so it's really important that the surprise actually takes you by surprise and not something that we're just used to. If we take the example of someone paying for your dinner, which depending on what kind of woman you are, may not take you by surprise at all unless he pushes the check in your direction, but let's say someone brings you a bouquet of flowers or chocolate or decides to surprise you at work and show up and take you out to lunch. Speaker 0 09:45 Perhaps a friend or a loved one or a lover comes over to help you with a project around the house. This element of surprise is what makes it exciting to receive something like this and in fact, it's what makes it exciting for the giver to give. Most people know that if they had to do or experience the same thing over and over again day in and day out, that they would quickly get bored of it, tired of it, and not even wanted anymore. Think of any toy when you were a child that you no longer have. Think of clothes from five 10 1520 years ago, and if you still don't believe it, imagine that a man buys you flowers every single day in the first week. Of course, everyone including your coworkers and your friends, they're surprised. They're delighted, they wished something like this might happen to them. Speaker 0 10:33 They're thinking to themselves, who is this Prince charming and what an incredible man and how do I get one myself? How quickly do you think that would turn sour by the second, third, and fourth week or three months into it flowers every single day. You don't even have a place to put them anymore. Not in your office, not in your home. You're giving them to your friends. And then imagine the frequency increases to twice a day, all the time, flowers, flowers, flowers. By the time next week came around, you and all of your girlfriends response would be, let me guess. Most people would never want to receive a gift like that again. And just imagine going forward in your new relationships because of course it would never work out with a guy like that. The next time someone tries to buy you flowers, would you even be delighted or excited? Speaker 0 11:19 So what happens if you're the kind of person who runs around believing that everywhere you go, you are entitled to gifts, you expect things to be done for you, and you expect things to happen for you just based on the fact that, for example, you're female. What happens when you believe that you thrive on acts of service? Are people doing things for you? The takeaway here is how can anyone feel special if they're receiving the same thing every single day? If someone purchased me iPads, Lulu lemon outerwear, kitchen equipment, grilling equipment, cars every single day or once a week on the same time or several times a month at some point in the very near future, it would absolutely become either an expectation. It would lose its value as a surprise, or it might even become a nuisance and totally unnecessary. It's also very difficult to have perspective, appreciation and true humility when someone's always taking care of something for you. Speaker 0 12:21 So you might think that's not true when it comes to paying for your food or your dinners or going out. But imagine that you have a favorite fruit, something exotic, or even something commonplace. Maybe it's a mango or a strawberry cherry, no matter how much you love that fruit, if you drink the sweet nectar from it every single day, eventually it stops becoming special and you'll likely get to a point where you don't even want it anymore. Once in a while I'd bump into daughters whose fathers taught them to be ultra independent with their money and their resources. It's always quite remarkable to come across someone like this because most of these women have friends who expect men to do something for them. So I always want to ask, how did you become this way? Why do you feel this way? And when you see your other friends expecting certain things, why don't you expect them as well? Speaker 0 13:14 Invariably they'll say, well, my dad raised me to understand the value of the dollar, what it's like to be independent and how good it feels to make my own money. And obviously what this demonstrates is the way we were raised as children, how our parents raised us with the expectations we had around money really has a lot to do with who we become as adults. I know I have to be careful with how I say this, but a good majority of women in the world today, it sounds funny at first, but women want to feel like women feel like a lady. Be treated like a lady. They crave someone who will be what they call a gentleman in some. Many women want to feel like they're being taken care of. I know it's not everybody, but it's a very large majority. If you're a man and you're hearing that and you don't know what that means, it basically means they love for you to pay for them and take care of them and put their jacket on them and have the chair pulled out and a door opened and things that for them might feel like they're magically taken care of, but come from your finances. Speaker 0 14:13 To sum it up succinctly, many women love when you buy them shit, and many women will still love and appreciate this even if they're independent on their own. And of course the opposite is true. There are plenty of women out there who want to pay for themselves and don't want anyone else contributing to their wellbeing and financially. So then the question becomes, if that's true for you and you're that kind of a girl, all of that is an exchange for what? Speaker 0 14:41 At what point does the taking care of the, providing, the giving, the endless generosity, the kind gestures, at what point does that stop or does it ever stop? If someone stops paying for your lifestyle, do you stop feeling special? But do you even feel special to begin with? If someone is regularly paying for your lifestyle, if you've had your nails or hair or yoga classes or massages or <inaudible> classes paid for or outings or shopping sprees or clubs or vacations over and over and over again and now it's just part of your daily routine after a year or two or five, do you still feel special or if it stopped and it got taken away, would something be missing and you would expect it to continue? Now we're examining what happens beyond the first day when you're involved with someone. What happens when the power dynamic is still strong where someone is providing resources or money, but you're knee deep in it. Speaker 0 15:43 You're in a relationship or you're married or it's been years and years of someone providing, well, what then who pays in what then? Well with my experience and research has shown me is appreciation levels go way, way, way down. But the finances and resource and money continues to grow and go way, way, way up, or at the very least stay the same. So what that means is take a traditional situation where a man is providing for a woman at first, it's an amazing gesture. You feel special, you feel wonderful having everything provided for you. And then as it happens again and again and again and again and again. Again, there's little room for anything else, but thank you. Thanks honey. Dinner was great. Thank you. Oh thanks. That was really sweet. That was a nice gesture. And that, that feeling of being the only one or feeling so special or feeling like you're being treated to something tends to evaporate away. Speaker 0 16:41 In fact, it can't help it happen that way. So in one way or another, it begs the question is a man compelled obligated, required to pay for another woman for the rest of her life, even though before they met, they were perfect strangers and didn't even know each other existed on the planet. Is there an obligation on a man's part to provide for an otherwise perfect stranger for the rest of his life? What is the justification? So these are intentionally hard and probing questions. They aren't meant to be easy to answer and they're meant for you to really think about what's true and what's real for you. Rather than having knee jerk responses like a woman should and a man should, it takes a lot to not be reactionary, angry, resentful to try to guess what kind of man you think I am, but to go inside and really sit with these types of questions. Speaker 0 17:31 Many people, especially women, when they hear something they don't like and their ego or psyche or what they believe rebels against it, there's usually some sort of knee jerk response. It sounds something like, Oh, if you even have to ask this question, honey, if you're the kind of person who thinks this way, then you just don't get it, or you just don't understand or you're just not a man or you're not for me, or you'll never have me or all of this. There's sort of this desire to flip it. And blame it on the other person who's initiating questions like this, but it takes a very powerful person to be able to find not just flippant answers, but real thought out, heartfelt answers to what's being asked. As such, we continue. If you identify as a woman, do you carry around the belief system, the knowing or the expectation? Speaker 0 18:20 That's simply because you're a woman. It's therefore required or you're somehow entitled to receive the treatment of a queen, a goddess, a deity of some sort, or at the very least, be treated to all number of things financially. Now, in some ways, this is rhetorical because I know many of you out there do you just love this stuff. You love referring to yourself as a goddess or a queen or a Supreme being. Some of you even believe you're from another planet and I invite you to ask yourself if you're someone who believes in toxic masculinity, if you're someone who believes that your acts as a narcissist or a sociopath or is unbelievably full of himself or ridiculously entitled, where does some of your belief systems come from when it comes down to what you deserve, what you're owed, and what you're entitled to because you are a love goddess. Speaker 0 19:07 However you receive from your partner, whoever you are, what do you give back that's tangible and different than what they offer you? What do you give that your partner isn't already giving equally back to you? So for example, it doesn't make sense if you say, well, they get my love because hopefully you're getting their love too and that's why you're together. It's a bit of a moot point if you say, well, they get me. You also get him. If you say, well, I cook for him and he also happens to be able to cook too. That's not really an exchange of value. Those two things are equal. What's beyond that? No one's flawless, but I think it's an incredible exercise to make a list of the things that you believe you give back or give in a relationship. I keep a long list myself of things that I recognize about myself worth who I am, how I feel about myself. Speaker 0 19:59 Somewhere to ask, what do you give in this relationship or what do you think you contribute? I'm very well prepared on the subject. Women will often advance the position that they deserve to be given financial gifts taken care of or provided for by the men who they've just met or who they've known for a little while and women will often say, well, they're into, they can't often define it, but <inaudible> where they always move up in their relationship status. They look for someone who's more intelligent or more well-off or more well established and they are even someone who has a higher social status. When I've asked women questions like, what do you give back or why do you deserve this? It's hard to actually find the question without sounding accusatory, right? When you ask someone, why do you think you deserve this? You're asking them to sort of prove themselves, and that's not really the texture that I'm going for. Speaker 0 20:47 But if you have an expectation about something that is so tremendous, so entitled more, can you imagine what most of the responses are when you ask people? Yeah, just like we said earlier, they respond with me, they get me and I cost one or two or $300,000 a year to maintain, and I'm not really sure what that includes. So I often will probe further and say, well, what does that mean? They get you. They get to have sex with you. Yes. Hmm. Okay. Are you not present when you're having sex with your partner or receiving any pleasure from it? Often they'll come back with, well, they get my femininity in my female charms, my care, and my affection. While do you not also receive some form of care, affection, listening, attentiveness, being cherished from the person who you're in a relationship with. And if you're not getting these things, if you're not getting care, love, affection, attention, what are you doing? Speaker 0 21:42 I don't think two people come together with the intention of spending the rest of their lives together so that they don't get love and affections that they're starved of sacks so that they don't have someone who listens to them or cares for them. It would seem to make sense that we really hunt for partners that match us, that can make us feel great or be happy and of course these things change over time and of course old, old man who have nothing but money and want companionship. We'll wind up looking for a young female to have sex with and so there's a financial exchange in exchange for sex. But what about everybody else? The more intelligent answers that I've heard from this is that there is something not to be used to. One's advantage about a woman's particular brand of care, love and affection that is really, really special. Speaker 0 22:25 That type of support that is genuine and maternal and loving and sweet, not the sort of you got this honey and go get them tiger and nonsense attitude that we all have today, but something real. I do think that's worth something. I do think that's very special and I do think that quality, that someone believing in you and having your back and being by your side through thick and thin, that's a very Admiral quality to give to someone and I also think it can be given by both partners. All of this being said, I also think it's a nice idea to let someone express the gesture that they want to share. That means when you're out to dinner with someone, no matter what their gender is, sometimes they really, really want to pay. So especially in the case of a woman, if a woman is asking to pay or insisting on paying or really wants to contribute her part, I think it's really important to not minimize that person, to not make them feel small or like a little girl. Speaker 0 23:21 I started to say that I think it's a very respectful thing to do that when someone offers you allow them, but that's not quite true because traditionally men are so used to paying or they're expected to pay that when a woman offers, she should be allowed to do so. Let her shine, let her express that. However, if a man offers, I don't think it should always be accepted and I think that's something that men should have to learn to deal with as well, that if a woman says, no, I actually really want to contribute, I have my reasons for doing this, that they're able to, and that men shouldn't have a ferocious bite afterwards and get butt hurt, upset, angry, and offended, much like my friend was giving an example earlier, and I think part of the reason men do get upset is because they know that the likelihood of them having sex afterwards or being intimate with you has severely diminished because you're taking a stand or being independent or demonstrating that you just want to be friends and there's truth to that. Speaker 0 24:22 Let's explore why. Why would a woman decide to pay for her own food and her own meal that she ate after having a short interaction with you? Well, I think one of the most admirable ones is her not wanting to give any impression that she could be purchased or bought. Now this flies in the face of other women's beliefs who think that this is what a man should do and that she's entitled to this sort of thing, and that's the bare minimum. That's sort of the point of entry. She might want to pay for her own meal because she doesn't want to feel obligated. She doesn't want to feel like she owes you anything, especially sex or intimacy. And even in some cases women want to pay or split the bill because they want to demonstrate that this isn't going anywhere. And so by canceling out any of their portion or obligation, they're saying, look, everything stops here. Speaker 0 25:09 Now since that way of thinking was devised by a woman, doesn't it also follow suit that if a woman allows a man to pay for her that then of course there's likely an expectation of something else. So if a woman pays her share, there's no expectations. It's a level playing field. Most people agree on this. Therefore, if we allow someone to pay for us, it disrupts the power balance and makes the playing field uneven. I believe that you can't just give and give and give and give and give of yourself and to another person without making things feel very unbalanced and I think the easiest way for you to understand what's at play here is to imagine you're out and about shopping and for whatever reason you strike up a conversation with another man or a woman who you find attractive and charming and it's a great conversation. Speaker 0 25:57 What would compel you to then say, Hey, can I go buy you stuff for the rest of the day? Always see, you've got a lot of groceries here. Let me take care of that for you. Or try to imagine you're in a fine dining restaurant and you're having dinner alone. You see another man dining nearby. You notice that he's very attractive to you and for some reason you both get your check at the same time. What would compel you as a woman to walk over to him and offer to pay his check? Is that to you very different from a perfect stranger sitting with you for an hour and doing the same thing. If you somehow found the courage to do that, what would be the motivation behind it? Would you expect anything back in return would adjust be a continuous kind gesture that you do for people that you like? Speaker 0 26:40 Well, let's just say that for some reason you both wound up speaking for 1520 minutes, maybe even an hour. Would you then feel compelled to buy his food? What if his bill was a hundred or $150? Now let's turn the proverbial tables. He sees you and he comes over and talks to you for a few minutes or 20 minutes or an hour and he says, Hey, let me get that for you. Is this okay with you? I think many women would say, yeah, that's okay. I like that. But would you feel indebted and would you feel obligated to him in some way? And would you be surprised if he then asked for your phone number, what you are doing later if you wanted to come over or watch Netflix? Say you've been seeing someone for a while now and you're visiting them a couple times a week and they live a ways away. Speaker 0 27:29 How many times would you drive that hour or 90 minutes or two hours to see them again and again and again? How many times would you give of yourself or sacrifice your time before you expected something back? It's not that things should be split 50 50 that's not the argument I'm making. It's not a tit for a tad or that everything is transactional, but there has to be some balance. I think almost everyone can agree. Some give and some take, some give and some take. Not just giving, giving, giving or taking, taking, taking. I have some really phenomenal female friends who are just incredible women, but they wind up feeling exhausted and burned because they give too much. Same thing with men and especially with finances. They give and give and give and show up for people and show up for people and unfortunately when someone's a giver, it as a matter of what your gender is. Speaker 0 28:21 When someone's a giver, the receiver inevitably is going to take advantage because you make it so easy not to take advantage of you, but to just say yes to what you're offering. When someone comes and offers you something amazing, care, love, affection, sex dinners, cocktails going out and they just say, Hey, don't think about a thing. Don't worry about it. I got it. It's very easy to keep saying yes. We were talking a little earlier about how women often insist on paying because that's how they were raised or that's what their dad taught them to do, but they have this idea that in doing so, it makes you equal respect one another. It makes you independent and not dependent on someone else. It can make a woman feel or any person feel for that matter, powerful because they created and generated the income themselves. When you talk to or spend time with women who enjoy paying their own way or who liked taking care of themselves or who enjoy taking care of the check once in a while there's something electric and alive about them. Speaker 0 29:20 They relish the fact that they can do it themselves and they don't need someone else to help them do it or that they don't specifically need that financial support from a man. So if you think that it's a man's responsibility innately to provide that, that's somehow is what makes him a man. Does it matter what the time of day is? Does it matter what age we're living in? Does it matter about feminism or gender roles? This is just what a man should do. While he may recall how he started off a couple of previous episodes with what happens when two women are dating or two men are dating, who pays then if it's different in those types of scenarios where gender is an important or you're the same gender, is there really anything left to this idea of claiming that a man is a man by how often or how frequently he pulls out his wallet? Speaker 0 30:11 I think now would be an excellent time to share an article that my same friend who shared her quote earlier on the podcast sent to me. It's an article written by a woman named Juliet Naftalan and it has a very disturbing title. There's now evidence some women go on dates for free meals and they have some disturbing personality traits in common. The article begins if you ever thought that your date was more interested in her meal than your company, you may have been on to something for a new first of its kind study published June 20th in the journal of social psychological and personality science, researchers surveyed 698 single heterosexual women and found that between 22% and 33% of them had agreed to meet a date because of the meal they'd get out of it, not the potential relationship. The researchers dubbed this trend, a foodie call to play off the common slang term booty call or meeting up with someone solely for sex to conduct this study. Speaker 0 31:09 The researchers asked women how often they engaged in foodie calls, how acceptable it is to go on a date with someone just for the free meal and how much they believed in traditional gender roles. They also had the women answer specific questions to determine if they had psychopathic or narcissistic tendencies that could have contributed to their foodie call outlooks. The researchers found that 23% or 156 of the women admitted to partaking in foodie calls. Among those 27% said they did so occasionally, 21% said they did so rarely and 15% said they went on foodie calls regularly. The woman who were okay with the act and went on foodie calls more frequently. We're also more likely to exhibit narcissistic or psychopathic traits or believe in traditional gender roles. Women with dark personality traits were more likely to find foodie calls. Acceptable narcissism and psychopathy are two mental health disorders that exist on a scale. Speaker 0 32:10 A person can have tendencies of these disorders or have a full blown version of them like narcissistic personality disorder. In either case, a narcissist is a person who has an inflated sense of self importance and lack of empathy for others, which are typically mechanisms used to mask their low self esteem. According to the Mayo clinic, these behaviors can be mild to extreme. The severity of psychopathic traits can also fall on a spectrum, but generally speaking, people with them lie to deceive. Others have little or no regard for moral standards and act impulsively. People who are on the more extreme end of the spectrum may be diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder. The researchers used scales developed to specifically diagnose these disorders. The Levinson, self-report psychopathy scale, and the 40 item narcissistic personality inventory to analyze the women's personalities. They said that it wasn't one specific trait, but a high overall score on these scales. Speaker 0 33:11 It correlated with women's beliefs that foodie calls were acceptable and their frequent participation in them. The researchers who wrote that, they're finding support, social theories that suggest women with dark personality traits and traditional gender role beliefs may exploit traditional dating scripts for men asking them to pay for meals because it's the societaly acceptable thing to do. The study did have some limitations. Since the researchers only looked at straight women, the results of the study can't be generalized for the entire population. Additionally, some of the women surveyed for the study could have purposely or accidentally misreported the number of foodie calls they went on or their feelings about them. Still, the study offers insight into the ways traditional dating expectations continue to permeate culture. Even with the advent of dating apps and the acceptance of more progressive gender roles. Speaker 0 34:02 So a very powerful article illustrating that perhaps one and a half to three women out of every 10 who go on dates might engage in behavior like this and just like with sex, where people often don't admit how many partners they've had or they underestimate how many people they're seeing simultaneously because this also can present itself like a shameful subject or something someone might be embarrassed about. It's also likely that people might exaggerate or minimize. Scientifically speaking, men tend to exaggerate and women tend to reduce or minimize or make smaller. Just ask a man and a woman how many respective partners they've each been with. But the other thing this article does very well is it suggests that it's not just about being a gentleman anymore. It's not just about being a man or being polite or that's what men do that as with many things, there's ways to game the system, ways to manipulate it and as we've heard a few times now, women in the world who have no intention of dating, sleeping with connecting with, making love to going out with their partner. Speaker 0 35:04 Again, creating any sort of additional connection with another person outside of getting free food, and I really liked the expression paying for someone's food or buying you food because I really feel like that adds a layer of truth and reality to it. When you call it a foodie call, it really minimizes and makes light of something that's actually rather serious. Whereas a booty call can actually be something that's fun and playful and both people agree too. It's consensual. Both people know it's happening. Both people want to have a good time and both people know what it is. A foodie call. On the other hand, both people are not on board. One person is effectively onboard manipulating the other person into buying them shit just for showing up. Now to be fair, even though this isn't quite the same thing, there are plenty of men who go out on dates with the sole intention of trying to have sex with or fuck their partner regardless of what they might say or do or how they are behaving. Speaker 0 36:00 However, it should be said, and I'm not defending this behavior, but it's true that someone who is interested only in sex and is trying to get that from someone else, they're also willing to put themselves through all of the, you might say hassle or traditional steps for them to get what they want. Making a date, spending time together, talking to someone, listening to them, paying for them, even if they're there with only one intention, whereas a woman can effectively just show up, sit down, chat with someone for an hour, have a free meal, and then never talk to them again. There's no investment, there's no loss. All right, so now that we've established that, let's talk about the idea of arguing over or fighting over who's going to pay the bill if women find it attractive when men pay for the bill, do they find it unattractive? Speaker 0 36:48 When men argue with a woman about paying the bill, when she's trying to pay it, do they like it when a man insists on paying for it and we'll fight you for it? Tooth and nail claiming all number of wild accusations like you embarrass him and you offend him and your money is foreign and I can't let you do this, please put it away. Listen, I've got to be better than the next guy to increase my chances of sleeping with you. Does a woman find it attractive when she gives in after being practically steamrolled or forced into it and finally quote unquote allows him to pay in a situation like this where both people want to pay and are genuinely offering the woman's not pretending to pull the card out and hoping he'll say yes. What's happening here? What do you think is at the bottom of all of this? Speaker 0 37:34 Doesn't it seem like two people are throwing a fit. Doesn't it feel like two people screaming me, give it to me. Let me be the one and the way I'm going to show you how great I am in the taking care of all this is by insisting that I do. So let me be the one to have all these great feelings that I want to get through paying. But Oh, by the way, you better appreciate it because I forced you into letting me pay. Thanks. Said differently. Let me win so that I can demonstrate to you that I'm a good partner. I'm a good mate. I'm the one who took care of things, which I was able to do because I demanded it threw a fit and altogether wouldn't even let you pay. And you finally gave in, allowed it or were submissive. So now I win. Speaker 0 38:17 And have you ever noticed when you finally give in to someone who you've been arguing about over who should pay? Does it feel great? Does it feel like you've been taken care of? Does it feel really good to you? Do you feel like someone's done you a big favor? Hell no. It doesn't. You feel very weird about it. You actually feel like you're giving into something that you didn't want to to happen. Well, thank you bill. That was very nice of you. Very kind, very kind. It's almost agitating. There's no gratitude in it because the truth of what's really going on has been exposed and what has been exposed not so much that someone wants to take care of something because there's such a great person, but because they want the good feelings associated with it or they want to look good. It doesn't really become about generosity at that point. Speaker 0 38:58 When you're arguing over the bill, does it? What I hope you've gleaned from listening to this segment is understanding that there are very different types of people in the world and not everyone has your best interest in mind. Most people are looking after exclusively themselves and yes, there are plenty of us who are good and that's why you hear me bouncing back and forth between two sides. It's just really hard to know who has what intention, but I do think it's in some ways foolish to believe that everyone just has your best interest in mind. Everyone just wants to do things for you. Every guy is just lining up to take you out and fix your flat tire and move your heavy furniture when you're moving and take you places and get you into places just simply because they're a good person and this is something I hear time and time again from almost all the women I know and countless clients as well, is that they believe they have so many well intentioned male friends who are just lining up to help them and they think they're so kind and so wonderful and they don't realize that there's something else that they want. Speaker 0 40:03 That being said, yes, I still have faith in humanity. I still have faith that many of us want to be great people, but you just can't underestimate what other people's intentions are, whether it's been announced to them or not wanting to be the top dog or the one to demonstrate that they are the one who provided her to care things. So often when people do things that are perceived as a kind gesture or a generous sentiment or because they're providing or just taking care of things, it's generally because people either want to associate good feelings with being needed, desired, liked, excepted, or they're fulfilling a cultural role. This is what men are supposed to do or they feel indebted to someone so they don't want the power balance to be uneven. And I really hope I'm saying this in enough different ways, that it really sinks in to those who want to believe that men just want to be nice or a match, take a girl out because that's the kind thing to do. Speaker 0 40:56 Or it was just so sweet of him to do this or God forbid because he loves it. What an incredibly convenient argument for having no accountability in the receipt of endless amounts of gifts, dinners and food. Men should pay for women all the time because they love doing it. Now it goes without saying. There is a select handful of men who really enjoy doing it. Most likely these men are going to be people who have no problem doing it because they're big earners and generators, so it becomes easy and enjoyable to give someone an incredible time to help someone to give someone an opportunity. I do believe in that, and I know that's there. If you have half a million dollars liquid in your bank account, is it a big deal to have $100 dinner here and $100 dinner there? If you're making 1525 35 $50,000 a year, it becomes a very different story. Speaker 0 41:50 If you're in the dating world and you're trying to find someone who you're match with, but to assume that all men across the board just enjoy or that because it's their role, it's what we just love to do is just spend our money on you. It's just quite simply not always true. Even as someone I have to say, who has throughout my entire life enjoyed going on dates, enjoyed treating someone as something special, enjoy taking a woman on a trip or an experience that she couldn't have otherwise done herself. It's not globally true. It's not globally true for me and it's not globally true for most men, especially when we're looking at what the person is getting out of it by doing it. Nobody wants to feel used. Nobody wants to feel taken advantage of. Speaker 0 42:33 So what do you do with all of this information? Here's the best I can rationalize it. I don't think it's always easy to know what someone's intentions and expectations are. Even if you ask and even if you think they're being truthful about what they tell you because you don't know if they know themselves well enough to be able to tell you if they're conscious enough to be able to be really honest and if they themselves can even conceptualize all of the reasons and intentions they may have. You don't know what's motivating them. Is it money? Is it power? Is it control? Is it sex? Is it being liked? I think people who listen very well and who can really pay attention to body language and energy or who are empaths. You can sort of pick up on someone's intentions and who they are, but it's very challenging to know and also even people with the best intentions are still subject to secondary gain. Speaker 0 43:27 My take on it is just being aware that if you're the recipient of an enormous amount of favors or attention or kindness or generosity or love, that it often comes with a price and I'm not trying to sound more bitter, cryptic or tell. You have to be wary of every single person you come across, but it's important to know that it's there and that's why I think when some of us find really special people in relationships who want to stick with them because we feel like we can trust them, we know them, they have our back, they're not going to hurt us and they're there for us. Speaker 1 43:59 Cool. Speaker 0 43:59 We're working our way through some very challenging subjects. Good job. If you're still listening now we're going to dive into expectations. This idea that often we expect someone to behave a certain way or to do something for us, but we want them to have no expectations of us. And so to start things off, I say again, if you in the dating world have an expectation that someone should pay for you, but then you also think that they should not have any kind of expectation from. It's really important that you're aware of the double standard there and how odd that sounds. Don't have any expectations when you meet me, but I absolutely expect that you will take care of this for me or that you will behave in a certain way towards me. My personal take is I think that sex should never be expected or demanded, but I can't emphasize enough how important it is for people to not put themselves in positions where those types of expectations may lie. Speaker 0 44:57 And I also think it's wise, especially on first dates to not engage in activities or do things that disrupt the power balance and make you feel indebted to someone in some way. Also remember an expectation doesn't mean you're being forced into doing something or that you have to do something or that something is even going to happen. What it actually means is there's just a strong desire or hope that something happens. Your wishing or hoping it comes true and you're feeling that sensation strongly, but you're not forcing it to happen. In fact, the dictionary definition is simply a belief that someone will or should achieve something or a strong belief that something will happen or be the case in the future if you can understand it from that perspective. Expecting intimacy, sex or some form of is not a terrible thing in itself and it's not even an unreasonable thing to do, to hope that it happens, to believe that it might to look forward to it happening that is not harming anyone in itself. Speaker 0 45:56 Having expectations to have sex with someone new for the first time is not something I recommend doing, but you're certainly welcome to expect or hope or have a strong belief that it might happen. What makes a difference to me is how you interact with a person, how you behave towards them and how you treat them with respect, care, kindness, and honoring where their boundaries are. All right. Now for a little visualization, I'd like you to imagine that instead of going out on a date, first dinner, movie club, VIP, whatever, that you meet and you have sex immediately and then after it's all done, as soon as it's over, the man pulls out his wallet and puts a 50 or a hundred dollar bill in your hand or on the side table and says thank you. That was amazing. I think I could say with a hundred percent certainty that almost every single woman listening to this in that position would feel like a whore that she's being purchased, that someone is paying for sex at a very cheap price at that. Speaker 0 46:56 I think they'd feel like they were treated like a prostitute and probably never want to speak to that man again after yelling at him or slapping him or something of that nature. So contemplate this for a moment. Why is it that if a man meets you for the first time, says you look amazing, says I'd love to take you to dinner and then you have sex that's somehow feels just fine by you if he's paid for everything. But if you have sex first and then he pays you for it, or you have sex first and then he takes care of certain things for you, that has a very different feeling. So how is it that for most of the population there's no guilt, no shame, no concern, no issue. If a man pays for things first and then you wind up sleeping together, in other words, by proxy. Speaker 0 47:42 So the money is going through one channel that isn't directly to you, but it's directly benefiting you. But if you have such great chemistry and then you have sex first and then he articulates that sex was so good, it makes me want to buy you something or give you money to go do something you'd like. There's just something off about that. And that's why I think especially women, they don't want to talk about it. You don't want to articulate it. You just want it to happen in a nice, easy way where a man is taking care of things, but it doesn't feel like he's buying you. Right. So if all of this has been driving you up a smooth wall, let's then take a look at the flip side of this, which is the argument of equality. The idea that men and women are equal and should be treated as such. Speaker 0 48:27 Now for many factors including biological ones, men and women on some levels are simply not equal at all. We know that we have our strengths and our weaknesses and in fact what's the lens through which we're examining it? Are we talking about strength? Are you talking about cognitive ability? Are you talking about reproductive health? Are you talking about the ability to multitask or think about multiple things at once? Are you talking about focus and laser sharp presence? What about ability to attract partners or access to the opposite or same sex or access to special events and clubs and exclusive gatherings that happened simply based on how you look. Are we equal? Is it fair? There are a lot of lenses through which to analyze this idea of equality between men and woman. So my quick down and dirty take on it is we are all equal in terms of being human beings. Speaker 0 49:18 And of course having human rights, having our basic and complex needs met. I believe in having equal opportunities granted to us. I believe we should be treated equally in terms of respect, care, honoring each other. And that's a big one because I don't think the two sexes are treated equally in any way, shape or form. And even most women don't treat other women the same way they treat men. Think of how catty you or your girlfriends get when you're in the presence of another intimidating woman. But I do believe that people deserve to be treated with equal amounts of respect, consideration, and care. So if we really do want men and women to be equal to earn equally, to be treated equally well, then it would make sense that if two people earned roughly the same amount of money, well when it makes sense that they'd be splitting the bill all the time because that's what would be equal and fair and sure they should do it in a way that makes it easy and fun and interchangeable. Speaker 0 50:10 Honey, this time I got it and the next time you get it and then you take turns and you try not to think about it and you don't make a big deal if one cost more one night or the other cost more the other night. You just enjoy that process of sharing. Now, if you do believe in equality, you have to ask yourself, and especially for an upcoming section on should the man pay to spend time with a woman? If you believe in equality, can you expect a man to pay money to spend time with you? All things being equal, do you think your time is valuable? Do you hate to waste time? If men and women are equal, isn't his time then also valuable and shouldn't his time not be wasted? Can you ever imagine yourself paying to spend time with a man just to be in his presence, money taken out of your account or cash paid just to sit with a man and hang out without him being a guru or a mentor or teaching you something that you never knew before? Speaker 0 51:08 I think the answer's a resounding no. If you're looking at it through the lens of equality, you have to ask yourself why would or why should a man spend money to spend time with you? And of course we know that generally arrangements like this happen because one person wants something that the other has. We usually one person wants companionship, sex, intimacy, and the other person wants freedom, finances, and resources. Yeah. So here we are three hours in to talking about who should pay on the first date and you see how complicated it can get. And that's why I always come back to activities that don't involve money and that don't involve leaning in and raising your voice as you're asking interview style questions to each other over dinner. What are some things you can do? Instead you go for a walk in a park, you go for a walk on the beach, you can go for a hike, you can go swimming somewhere, you can go to a botanical garden, you can get physical, take a dance class or a yoga class together. Speaker 0 52:07 Something that involves movement and something that stays away from, you know, the retail shopping experience. But if you can't get around that and you have to do something that involves money, it's worth thinking about this. If a man wants a woman to spend time with him and he wants to pay for that experience, what is that called? We know that traditionally that's called getting an escort. And we also know that if a man wants to pay money to have sex with a woman or spend money in any way, shape or form, that that's also known as prostitution. So how do you draw the line between buying and paying for sex and buying and paying for sex indirectly on first, second and third dates goes back to my previous example. No one wants to find money on the nightstand after you just had sex together, but there is a huge expectation to find money in the little black sleeve that takes care of the bill when you're at a nice restaurant, something that suddenly in this type of situation we justify as chivalrous or a kind gesture being a gentleman or as many women often call it being a man. Speaker 0 53:15 If a man spends money on a woman and she winds up having sex with him or if he doesn't spend any money on her even on the first date. And so therefore she winds up being disinterested, uninterested, or doesn't want to have any kind of sexual intimacy at all. Not based on her attractiveness towards him, not based on his other actions, but based on whether he took care of the bill or not. Does that not make a case for paying for sex? So now it's worth asking. Do you have a belief as a woman or an expectation that if a man spends time with you, he needs to be spending money? Will you go places with a man out to eat, to concerts, to events, boat trips, trips to Vegas, trips around the world, and if he isn't paying for it or most of it, or all of it, most of the time, will you not to quote other people's words, give it up. Speaker 0 54:08 Will you not spend time with him? Will you not have sex? You know, as I listened back through all of this, I know it's a hard subject. I keep saying it through the whole episode. It's why it's broken down over three parts and I really appreciate you being here sitting through it, listening to this, and I'm really aware that you may have some compelling arguments that you'd love to share back or ways that make you feel very differently or a different way to see it. And I understand that as we explore all these subjects, it's not the end all be all way. It doesn't mean that because I've spoken it, it's therefore truth. It's just some different ways to look at things in the world we live in today and now we come to a very interesting topic that many people confuse with buying women's stuff. Speaker 0 54:53 Can you guess what it is? Chivalry? The idea of being chivalrous. Consider for a moment what your own working definition of chivalry is. You can pause the audio for a second, and if you're a man, you can ask what you think it means to be chivalrous and as a woman, what you think it means when a man is chivalrous toward you. How does that look? Do you use sentences like, Oh, I'm just old fashioned. I love a man who understands chivalry. I like a real man. I'm into men who know how a woman should be treated. It sounds great, doesn't it? It sounds romantic. You feel special when you say it, but what happens if we Google the definition of chivalry, Knights, nobleman, and horseman. Collectively, I. E. I fought against the creme of French chivalry. The combination of qualities expected of an ideal night, especially courage, honor, courtesy, justice, and a readiness to help the weak. Speaker 0 55:54 And then finally, simply courteous behavior. Now to be clear, what does courteous mean? That means polite, respectful, or considerate in manner. So can you have an equal society? Can men and women be equal and valued as equals while people believe in and engage in possibly some bastardized version of the word chivalry? Can we continue to live in a world where men are constantly paying for women with no and no expectation because we're being chivalrous, but we're also supposed to treat each other as equals? Well, I think if we were going to treat each other equal, some very drastic changes would have to occur. People would either begin to treat each other horribly across the board, or incredibly well. I think men would then have to begin taking other straight men out to dinner for no apparent reason. Other than that, they were just, you know, wanting to be friends. Speaker 0 56:49 Women would have to take other women out to dinner and women would have to take other men out to dinner if we're going for pure equality. So let's take a look at a few statistics. In a study of over 17,000 unmarried heterosexual men and women in an open access academic journal. The study tells us that 76% of men said that they feel guilty, not thrilled, and not elated, not happy to do it, and not excited and not jumping over the moon to do it, but they feel guilty if they don't pay for the date. And that's a huge mental shift to understand that so many women have convinced themselves that men love to do this when in fact, many of them are doing it from a place of guilt and obligation. And if you are a woman, you know very well how terrible guilt and obligation feels. Speaker 0 57:34 We hate these kinds of feelings. So furthermore, 64% of men believe that women should actually contribute to the Ville. And on top of all of that, nearly half of all men surveyed would stop dating a woman who never paid her way. Meanwhile, about 40% of women, almost half said they were bothered when men wouldn't accept their offer to pay. But nevertheless, 39% of all women wished that a man would actually reject their offer to pay to begin with. 40% of women want men to say, no, no. Put your card away. I'll get it. And so the gesture, the kind gesture of offering to pay your part or to split becomes inauthentic or fake. And then the final numbers, 44% of women were bothered if men expected them to pay. So one of the things we can infer from these numbers is that almost half of women love it when men pay. Speaker 0 58:34 But then also that so many men feel obligated to do so. In a 2014 study done by NerdWallet, they asked more than 1000 people across the United States who had been living with their partners for at least six months. A range of questions regarding attitudes and responsibilities around cash. This is an article written by Kevin Voight. It says, despite the fact that we're moving towards equality, still some of these old dating customs die hard. 77.4% of people in a relationship believe men should pay the bill on the first date. And this sentiment is true for both genders, although most men are likely to believe that they should do it. About 35.9% of men surveyed pay 100% of the household bills compared to 14.3% of women and slightly than one third of men and women surveyed split the household bills. More than one third of men and women in relationship have hidden cash from their significant other. More than one in four people in relationships secretly spend money without telling their partner. They go on to say that the number of people in relationship, both men and women who hide cash and purchases from their partner is also alarming. Money matters are the top reasons why relationships fall apart. In a 2013 study of over 4,500 couples by Kansas state university researchers, they found that arguments about money were the top predictor of whether a marriage fails. Speaker 0 00:01 What I really liked about the surveys that they considered what happens after the first date as well, and that's what I think a lot of this comes down to because your first date comes and goes within an hour or two, so what happens next? Here's how women responded about whether they split the cost or take turns to pay or pay themselves. 41% split the cost or take turns paying. 59% of women responded. My significant other pays for most if not all of the dates and it may come as no surprise, 0% of women responded, I pay for the bill. Speaker 0 00:36 It is interesting to note that chivalry once upon a time and a lot more to do with manners and how you carried yourself around and presented yourself in front of women and not committing acts of violence towards them, but it actually had a lot to do with manners. Interestingly enough, if you haven't guessed it already, manners is a lot of what this podcast is predicated on, but initially as everyone knows, because it was a very different time, shivery had very little to do with buying things for women. And furthermore, what is it about our society, our mentality, our way of thinking that suggests that we have to dig up 500 or a thousand year old texts or biblical texts or how things used to be when there wasn't electricity and there wasn't enough food to live and times were very different. Why do we continuously insist that that is a model of how things should be today? Not that it has to be the opposite or it has to be completely different or we have to eliminate everything. Certainly we've learned something along the way, but aren't we always growing and changing? I mean, the lives we live today are radically different from what was happening 200 much less 600 years ago. Speaker 0 01:46 So let's start from a different place. We all know that whether is back then or today, women want to feel, they want to feel special, cherished and adored. Like they're the only ones alive on the planet who has your attention. They don't want to know that what you're doing, you've done for other women or you're doing it currently for other women. And it's also true that men like to feel special, that your attention is only on us, that you're not dating many men at the same time be like your attention to be on us. And this is a very romantic ideal of love and courtship. The idea that if we're investing in each other emotionally, physically, financially, that you're not doing this with 20 other guys or gals, but if the way you're handling your dating life today consists of treating people like objects, blowing people off, using people for dinners, not being appreciative, expecting things from others. Speaker 0 02:38 While you don't want any expectation, put on yourself expecting that things should be paid for because you are a certain gender thinking that you should be the only one that he's taken care of and his attention should only be on you. But you've got several other dates lined up with men because you're just checking things out and keeping your options open. Maybe you're sleeping with different men, maybe you're ghosting different men. If you're also not responding to messages, taking hours or days to get back to someone who invited you out, you got to ask yourself, what would compel a person to only choose you and want to pay for only you in spite of all of that behavior. And can you think for a moment any woman listening that if you heard a man say, well, I'm a man, so therefore I'm entitled to. I'm the man. Speaker 0 03:25 So therefore I get, I'm a man. So therefore a woman needs to, I'm a man. So therefore a woman better know her place and dot, dot, dot. Does any of that feel safe or comfortable or exciting to you? So we have this idea in the dating world that all of someone else's attention should be on us and they shouldn't be doing anything else regardless of how we treat them, how available we are and how busy we are. But what's far more likely in the world we live in is that we are all talking to different people. There's just too many possibilities for an encounter, whether it's someone you meet at the gym or the store on Snapchat, yoga, Lottie's, Facebook, Instagram, every single place someone goes, including without even having to leave their house because we have our phones. Women especially are in contact with potential suitors and people who want to spend time with them or do things with them. Speaker 0 04:15 I'm definitely not one to advocate going through your partner's phone or asking to see things that are none of your business, but if you had the opportunity because they wanted you to see her, let you go through someone's phone who you just met or you've known for about a month, especially if it's a woman and you're able to see all the different people who reach out in any number of ways from are you down to fuck to Oh my God, you're so gorgeous. To endless flirtatious behavior back and forth to playful banter. Some who only contact her on Instagram, some who are only on Facebook messenger, some who are on dating websites, and then how many dating apps does she using? Same thing for men as well, but because of the nature of things, how things work and who pursues who, it's far more likely that she's going to have infinite more contacts. Speaker 0 05:00 Hey, what's up? You look so beautiful. Do you want to come for free to this party tonight? Hey, can I pick you up and take you to this event? What are you up to later? And if you see enough responses from man, you see huge similarities. Invitations for one on one time spent together or favors being done in order to get some one on one time with someone. And why do you suppose that they're doing all of these favors? Reaching out, complementing, offering, pursuing. Look, you heard me say it at the beginning of two previous episodes. I am personally someone who has constantly taken women out to dinner and out on the first date. It's often expected and it really seems to be what either makes women a happy be continue to want to spend time together or see the bare minimum that women think men should be doing to demonstrate their real interest. But I have a hard time with women who have an expectation that if we're going to be spending time together, I should basically be giving her money. How does that demean and degrade who I am as a person, what I bring to the table? What if I expected her to pay for my time, my intelligence, my ability, my knowledge, my knowhow, what I bring to the table, how I could help her in her life? Doesn't that have value too? Speaker 2 06:11 Okay. Speaker 0 06:11 If we're going to be doing something together, what justification is there for me to pull out my wallet every single time to continue to provide for her just to spend time. If my wallet wasn't pulled out, then we wouldn't be spending time together. I can't abide that. Women, if you're listening, do you try to meet men who are dumber than you, have less status are in a lower social circle, have less than you are embarrassing to be around or take care of themselves worse than you do. So. If your very nature compels you to look for someone who's better than you on many, many different levels, someone who has more or who can provide more or who can teach you more or can help you grow, why is he paying for you? Why is he paying for your time if what you search for is more valuable than what you offer in return? Strong philosophies. We do realize hopefully that we're talking about a very unique and particular kind of person here. We know this is an every woman we know. This is an every man. So for those of you who aren't like this at all, we know you're out there Speaker 2 07:30 <inaudible>. Speaker 0 07:30 So taking things back to chivalry, how many dates do you go on in a month or a week or even a day? How many times have you gone on one or two or three dates in a day? Do you find that to be courteous, considerate, or respectful behavior to each of your dates when you're just seeing what's out there? But so many of them are taking care of you. If one of those guys is going to be the one, how would he like it? Knowing that you either had sex with multiple people in the same week that you met him or you went on several dates with other people and then finally settled on him. It's okay for you to bounce from man to man, to man, seeing what your options are, seeing what's out there. Possibly even sharing intimacy with them or having sex with them, but somehow each time a man should continue to show you gestures of gratitude and kindness and their undivided attention and big spending and he should only have eyes for you because you want to feel special. Speaker 0 08:26 If as a woman, you know you have tons of other people who you're talking to, texting, flirting with, spending time with or interacting one on one with where he's hoping for more, but you friend zoned him but you still spend time together because he takes care of things for you. Is that chivalrous? Is that what being a lady is all about? The other interesting thing about people who say they're old fashion or have a more traditional lifestyle, do you also believe that in that traditional lifestyle you shouldn't drive or voter, you should be at home washing dishes or taking care of the kids or only doing laundry or there should be a hot meal waiting for your man when he comes home? Listen, there is an argument to say that a lot of times traditional gender roles do and can work, but a very, very large percentage of women would also say, hell no, I don't want any of that. Speaker 0 09:14 For tradition to work, there has to be a huge give and take. A man has the set of roles and a woman has her rules and both of them need to continuously, regularly abide by these rules and roles for it to continue to work. And you better believe that if someone abandons their role or just stops doing their part, that the entire thing is going to come crumbling down. A question that I come back to time and time again, especially when you don't know someone, especially when you're just starting to date, why should a perfect stranger who knows nothing about you and may never see you again? Why does it not matter how you behave, how you act, how you treat him, what you do, how you show up if you're late or not? Why should he be obligated to take care of you? And I want to share an example from my personal archives. Speaker 0 10:01 Once I was in communication with the girl who I was attracted to, it seemed like she was attracted to me. We've been talking and texting a little bit and I felt comfortable enough to invite her over. It was right in the middle of the afternoon. She agreed and we both sounded really excited about what was going to happen next. She said, yes, I would love to come over and meet you and I need to emphasize there is no convincing, no manipulation, no communication around this other than would you like to come by? Yes, I would love to come over and meet you. So he got off the call and only a few minutes went by before the theatrics began. Suddenly a text comes in under one condition only if I can bring my dog. I said, listen, I'd love to meet your dog, but I got a cat so I can't say yes to that request. Speaker 0 10:45 You could bring him, but he'd have to stay in the car or in the garage. So sure enough that request went away in a few minutes later, she puts forth a seemingly benign and innocuous question and offer, why don't we go to dinner now? Notice the wording. Why don't we go to dinner? Not why don't you buy me dinner? Or why don't we share a dinner together that you pay for? I'm suggesting we go somewhere, but I think you should take care of it. And she certainly didn't say, why don't I take you to dinner because I'm the woman and I'm proposing it just simply put, why don't we go to dinner with, of course, the implication and expectation that I pay for it. And I think situations like this are where dating goes wrong. Now you know me from previous podcasts and explaining all of this, I don't mind taking a woman out to dinner. Speaker 0 11:35 I don't mind going out and having dinner with someone and then paying for the bill. But this where she suggests that I'm expected to take care of it and I don't even know if I'm going to like this person or ever see them again. Hmm. That doesn't sit well with me. I want to keep focusing on sentence structure. Why don't we go to dinner? Women are masters at crafting sentences. That sounds so innocent and sweet and like a great idea, but have an altogether deeper meaning or ulterior motive. In fact, ladies, if I said to you, Hey, would you like to have dinner with me tonight? Why don't you and I grab a bite to eat? Wouldn't you then believe with 100% certainty that I would be the one to pay for it? I feel confident saying that most people believe that the person who does the asking or the inviting is the one who does the paying. Speaker 0 12:20 Now check this out. Over dinner, she actually revealed to me that she was very excited to come over. She had no problem with that. She had no hangups about it until of course her roommate gave her the psychopath warning, don't you know you must never go to a stranger's house. You could die. He could be expecting sex, you might wind up having sex with him. All number of terrible things can happen. Everybody's favorite line. He could be an ax murderer because we have so many of those. So she let me know that her roommate filled her head with these awful possibilities. And then she goes on to say she doesn't even share the same sentiment. She doesn't care. She doesn't carry around that fear. She thinks of herself Maura's, open-minded, openhearted, and more trusting. Nevertheless, and per her recommendation, we found ourselves at a very expensive dinner table. Speaker 0 13:07 So when I got there, it's just unbelievable. I'm a very punctual person and I arrived on time. She got there early, was sitting at the bar talking to the bartender and had already indulged in a glass or two of wine. All of these things seem very natural and I know I'm probably dissecting them in a way that maybe you've never thought of them before. Never even considered it, but stay with me. So this is what's called social pressure. And I feel like many men will succumb to this whether they like it or not want it or not, or are aware of it or not. So when the bartender asks, should I just transfer the tab over to your table or do you want to close it out here? What do you think? She said, transfer it over. Of course. Of course we transfer it over to him. Speaker 0 13:53 Why would I be paying for the drinks that I've ordered when he's not even here yet? And I got here extra early. So things like this can take you by surprise. You're not even ready for it. You could just stand there with your jaw on the floor. Like uh, yeah, transferred over to the table. I think I'd feel a little ridiculous and funny publicly announcing to anyone who can hear the waitress, the bartender or people who are dining. Uh, no, no. Let her take care of those drinks. You know, I'm gonna get dinner. So yeah, transferred over. Sounds so innocent, but it's also a strange, uncomfortable pressure. And listen, if you're going out with your husband, and that's what's expected. If you've got a boyfriend and he just takes care of you, that's how it goes. But when you meet someone for the first time, kind of feels like someone who sits down and orders the Philemon young and the lobster because that's the most expensive thing on the menu and then has six drinks during dinner. Speaker 0 14:39 You can do it, but it doesn't make a good impression and it's always so fascinating to me. If you hear a man trying to justify not paying for a woman, it sounds cheap. But if the tables are turned and say, I got there early and I ordered a few drinks and I said transfer them to the table, and then I pushed the check in her direction afterwards. Wouldn't that be absolutely preposterous? Imagine I'm there drinking. The bartender asks you want to close out your tab now, mr none. No, no, no, no. She'll get it transferred over to the table, transferred over and she'll take care of it. It's completely laughable. So why do people feel that it works in the other direction? Let me get back to the story though. So you have the whole picture. We sit down to eat and immediately of course I can feel the interview style qualifying questions that come through. Speaker 0 15:28 Am I someone she wants to invest in? Am I someone she wants to continue to spend time with? Is it going to be worth her time? And by the way, those kind of questions never make a man feel like he's being valued or you're interested in who he is. It's more like, is this guy going to be a fit for me? So the quality of time that we're actually spending together is not that great. It's more like you literally are sitting down for an interview that's going to largely determine what direction the night takes. So we ate. She wasn't a big fan of the food, frankly. Neither was I. A couple of things were undercooked and when the check finally arrived, she completely ignored its existence. Now it bears saying again my whole life, I'm someone who's happily taken women out on dates and paid for them myself. Speaker 0 16:13 But in a situation like this where I'm so curious about what she's going to do with all that alcohol, and especially when she revealed to me over dinner, she's going to be taking a very long trip. Soon. She's going to find herself. She doesn't know when she's coming back. She's leaving the country. All this stuff makes it feel a little forced, like I'm being used, obligated, uncomfortable if I don't. Now of course I had a way out. Of course I could've told her, look, let's split this. And of course I could have just left and I actually really weigh the consequences of me putting in the effort towards being a courteous gentleman or someone who just takes care of things or who picks up the Slack or even not wanting to make waves in a public restaurant. You have to see in moments like this, it doesn't come down to just the right thing to do or just the expectation that I should do it because I'm a man or dating's expensive and if you want to play the game you gotta have the money or as a matter who the woman is, what kind of character she has, how she treats you, the mantra just pay. Speaker 0 17:14 And so with her insistence early on that we should go out to dinner, her idea, her suggestion, what city it should be in and where we should meet and what kind of restaurant it should be. I mean she had the reins, the power or the choice to decide where we were going to go. Then to help herself to as much alcohol as she'd like and then to ignore the check when it got set on the table. It makes me feel a few things. Number one, it makes me feel that she feels that it's somehow a privilege for me to spend time with her, a privilege for me to sit there while she questions me and asks me things that tick off her list of what she's interested in. I find that so attractive and I even think about this today. I'm thinking, what did I get out of this interaction? Speaker 0 17:55 Because it wasn't someone who was present with me and loving and genuinely interested in who I am. It wasn't someone who we were seeing where this is going to go. It wasn't a hookup. It wasn't to see if we had good or hot sexual chemistry, and if you think all of that isn't bad enough, even at the very end, she never said thank you for dinner, so I decided to turn this whole thing into an experiment. Of course, because you know I'm going to make a podcast episode out of it. Then I watched her very carefully as I pulled out my wallet, as I paid, as the waiter took it away, observing as she completely ignored everything as if it wasn't even happening in front of her. That also, by the way, is a very interesting skill that I also think women have developed more than men is this idea of pretending something isn't happening around you, completely ignoring it. Speaker 0 18:43 Whether it's a man you're not interested in who walks by you or the financial interaction that's going on the table. It's almost like she wants to block out that there's a money exchange happening here. So instead of noticing what was happening, she just continued to talk and talk and talk about herself. So then after the bill comes in, it's paid for. She lets me know I could if I so desire, have the privilege of taking her home, giving her a ride because you know she Ubered there. So eventually the date, fortunately probably for both of us comes to an end and maybe you're thinking to yourself, well she didn't have interest anyway. Maybe you're thinking to yourself that she like me did not enjoy the date at all. But the funny thing is we were actually pretty cozy together. There was eye contact, smiling, some laughter from her end, some touching side from the psychological warfare going on underneath if those aren't interested signs, what is so experiences like that, and I know there's countless experiences that women have had from really crappy men that could also match this or put this to shame, but it makes men feel uncomfortable. Speaker 0 19:53 We feel used, manipulated, taken advantage of. And I really wanted to share a story of my own so you can feel the emotion behind it rather than repeating a story from a client or having to change it up a bit. And it really makes me think, what could I have done better or where could I have put my foot down or should I have said something in the restaurant? Should I have encouraged her to split the meal with me? If she's not going to be around anyway, should I have just said, no, let's not go to dinner. Let's go for a walk in the park. Should I have let things play out the way they did? And of course at the end of the day, does this mean something to me? Do I care one way or another? No. Does she mean something to me? No, but the interaction does and because it's the nature of my work, I talk about it. Speaker 0 20:34 Something like this though stays with me as a memory, not because she or I was interested or not, but based on how she treated me and no matter how good I treated her or how respectful I was to her, there was still certain behavior that I found inexcusable that sits with people and it doesn't have to be that way. You can have a great time with someone you're not interested in or someone who you know it's not going to work with without obligating them to you simply by having great manners, being awesome, being respectful, being sweet. It's really not that complicated. So this is one of the reasons I find inner dates to be so challenging because of the expectation level, especially in a situation like this where the entitlement is just astronomical. Why would anyone want to invest so fully and so strongly into someone else, only for them to vanish completely and women, imagine that someone has sex with you and then vanishes the next day and never talks to you again. They work, they work, they work hard to get into. You get inside of you and then you never speak again. That's the exact same feeling that you're creating when you use a man to go to dinner and then vanish completely out of his life. Speaker 0 21:42 Now, if you're young and single, chances are you're not only dating, sleeping with or talking to one man, this red hot minute and in many cases you're not just sleeping with one guy and if you are sleeping with another man or other men, there's a huge chance that the additional men who you're going on first dates with don't know that you're doing this. Yes, I know this to be true and yes, I also know some of you very innocent girls are listening and thinking to yourself, you can never do something like that. Great. I know that there are girls out there who are vehemently monogamous. You really like to take your time. You only talk to one person at a time. I know you're super choosy and picky, which by the way, every woman I've ever come across also believes she's super choosy and picky. Speaker 0 22:23 I know there are women out there who enjoy the process of getting to know someone, but more and more this becomes rare with the quantity of dating apps and social media that's out there. We're just in front of so many people. So often. Music festivals, communities, different circles of friends, friends of friends, people who find you attractive everywhere you go, including the grocery store. So a question is, while you're dating other men, what do the men who are seeing you, what do they get from you specifically when they spend time with you and when they're paying for you and treating you and inviting you to all number of special places when you're interested in having sex with someone for the first time, when you're interested in seeing where they go romantically, do you charge for your time? Are you exchanging your sex or your time for money? Speaker 0 23:20 Time to wrap it up. What are my thoughts? While the fact of the matter is, no matter how compelling these arguments may be, some of you may have had Epiphanes. Some of you may have changed the way you feel completely, no matter how right you may think these principles I've shared are, and no matter how many people you think agree with what I've shared here, just can't buck. The current of the way people were raised and how what they were taught has turned into a belief which has turned into knowing tradition has hammered things into our minds and still does decade after decade of how things should be. We see it on TV, we hear it on the radio, we hear it from our friends, we read it in books to now. We have this feeling, this necessity of how we believe things should be. Most of us will never change as long as something is working in our favor or benefiting us directly. Why would you want to take on a new belief system or have a new law be passed? If it means you will lose time, money or how you look, why would you want to change your belief about something if it means you would lose all of this free stuff Speaker 0 24:33 when personal gain is involved, most people cannot even consider another option. It's always going to be the case that even you as a well-meaning person can share this podcast with. Someone can send the whole three part series to someone and because of cultural beliefs or again, how they've been raised or what their dad or mom always taught them or what their girlfriends have always recommended. You could send them this podcast, they could listen to the whole thing in full. They could be like, Oh, this guy makes some really, really good points and still they're going to say, yeah, but that's not what I believe. That's not what I want. Or I know men who are willing to pay or I like the way I'm living my lifestyle and there are plenty of men who are willing to believe in what I believe to make this work for me, so the hell with it. I'm going to continue to do what I've been doing this whole time and if you want to know me, have sex with me, be with me, spend time with me. Even if you're not willing to admit this, and many people are not willing to admit this, Speaker 0 25:27 it's going to cost money. Speaker 0 25:31 In my personal life and throughout previous relationships, I do feel lucky for the most part in that many women haven't made me feel like I ought to or I must or I have to pay, and honestly, that's really made me feel like it gives me the desire to do it even more because it feels like an authentic appreciation and authentic connection and I don't think you can fake that very easily. At least I hope not. So I do feel very fortunate for many of the girlfriends that I have had that have been so kind and sweet or appreciative. I think at the end of the day for people who are married listening to this or in a longterm relationship, if one person isn't making significantly more, you're probably taking turns and you probably have found your flow with how to make this work so it's not too skewed in one direction or the other. Speaker 0 26:16 As someone who spent a good majority of my life taking care of others, I'm now at the point where I'm tuning into that aspect of myself where I really enjoy being taken care of myself. It's nice to experience what it's like to be taken care of once in a while, to not have to do all the work all the time. One of my favorite ways to connect with anybody but especially women on a date or girlfriends is to cook them a meal and that requires of course a certain degree of trust or intimacy depending on how they were raised and what they think about coming over. But that's a place often where I like to show, look, I can create, I can delight your senses. What we put in your mouth is likely going to make you smile and feel incredible and make your eyes widen. Speaker 0 26:58 That's one of my favorite ways to do it, but when it comes to how it goes, how the world is, what's going to happen from here on out. Yes, sure. There'll be some small changes here and there and those conscious and awake people who are listening to the podcast who want to influence others. It can make a nice difference, but I really believe that we are who we are and a lot of people are very comfortable with how the world has been set up for them. I think it's just going to be true that things work out better when the man pays and the woman receives for no reason and regardless of how she treats him, that's just the way the world kind of works at this point. I don't want to believe that, but it's what I see play out over and over and over again. Speaker 0 27:37 You know, in my own life, anytime my situation has been better than someone that I've been dating, I've been the one to take care of it in most cases. I love it. It's a really special way for two people to have an experience that you otherwise couldn't have, but when things start to become a little more equal or someone's experiencing more success in their job, I shared earlier in another episode with you about a Belarusian girl who had infinite resources and then later another Russian girl who had almost no resources, but the girl who had no resort, well actually both of them, but I wound up footing the bill for the girl who had no resources because I understood as she was working in a department store, she didn't have any money or resources. If we wanted to travel, if you wanted to connect, if you want to do things, it was going to have to come from somewhere. Speaker 0 28:17 I think what it comes down to is I don't like feeling obligated. I don't like feeling expected. I hope I have enough radar to understand when it is or the kind of person that I'm spending time with, but at the end of the day, anyone can pretend to pull out their card. Anyone can pretend to say, Oh, let me help you with the full expectation that I might decline it, and the only way to find out the truth is say, Oh great. Yeah, you sure can, thank you. But then you also don't know when her mind, what happens next. Does she say, Oh, it's over with this guy. It's never going to work. Does she feel great about it? It, it's such an uncomfortable subject continuously for so many of us. This was a really challenging episode for me to make all three of them because the thoughts that we explore are so deep. Speaker 0 28:58 I know it bumps up against how you feel. I know may contradict how you feel. We all feel so strongly about sex, money, and power. I know listening to me go on and on like this. It's well a lot and you can't respond back, but I do hope you use it as a tool for your family and friends and that you're able to discuss it and come to your own conclusions. I don't know anyone who talks about what system they're going to use to organize money once you start dating. I've never heard someone talk about that conversation. I've never heard someone say, Hey, here's how we're going to do our financial planning until you really need deep into it. Furthermore, if you are a woman who pays her own way or loves to contribute or loves to show your independence, or if you're with a guy who has those beliefs and you don't have those beliefs and for that reason and low and for that reason alone, I don't think we'll ever know why men are really doing it. Speaker 0 29:46 Are we doing it to look good? Are we doing it to save face? Are we doing it because we're obligated? Are we doing it for the hope of sex? Are we doing it because we are just a great person? There's always going to be some other, in other men's words, schmuck who will do it or take care of it or someone who will pay or someone who will give her what she wants and so there's no real way to know a real man's motivation. A man will do whatever he can to be able to be with her. That's part of the natural selection process. It can be a bit of a sad conversation and I also think it's challenging for people who don't have many financial resources. What are you guys going to do if you save up so much to go on one date and she totally blows it or it doesn't work out or she orders the most expensive thing on the menu and then never talks to you again what he's supposed to do next for your second or third or fourth date with someone new, you have to continue to invest and invest and invest all the while without knowing whether that one will ever talk to you again. Speaker 0 30:40 So I really hope that this has helped you at least understand yourself and your friends a lot better. I hope it's given some clarity around what both sides go through. I also hope it's helped you clarify your expectations. Do you feel entitled, obligated, guilty? Do you feel shame? How does sex play into it and do you believe that if because you were born of a certain sex that you are owed something? I want to close with a few final thoughts that I shared with you in the beginning of this podcast. I do believe there are people in the world who want to be inherently good. I do believe in opening doors for people in being polite and courteous and friendly because there's a positive feeling behind it, of making someone else feel good. I believe in love. I believe in trust. I believe in communication and closeness. Speaker 0 31:30 I believe in taking good care of someone and I really believe in letting someone take good care of you. I believe that we do things from the goodness of our own heart. Sometimes I believe that it's healthy to not mix sex and money and at the same time I also believe that some people don't know how to offer anything but sex or money. And maybe in those cases, those are the exceptions. I really hope you've gotten a lot out of this. I know it was super intense. This is a a 90 minute episode. I was going to break it up into four total parts, but I thought my God, once subject, let's get it done with these episodes, take a lot of time and care to make an enormous amount of time to phrase them right and to hopefully present something that is everlasting and you could come back to again and again and again to consult. Speaker 0 32:18 It makes a huge difference when someone wants to show their appreciation by making a donation or a contribution to our Patrion. It's a monthly subscription service, so each month, in addition to you getting able to listen to the podcast and make really positive changes in your life, Patrion gives a little something back to closeness through your health. One five 10 50 a hundred dollars a month. It makes a really big difference in us being able to continue to do this kind of work together. As you know, we also offer private closeness coaching that isn't only for people who are exclusively located in San Diego, California. We can video chat, talk on the phone, do sessions over the air, and it works out really well as well. So please take a moment to read some of the reviews. Take a look at our website, get closest.com and if you think you'd benefit from working together one on one or two on one or three on one with me, please be in touch. Have a wonderful day. And I am very happy to be moving on from this subject. Take care.