Speaker 0 00:00 Welcome to the closeness podcast. You can support this content by donating tower
[email protected] forward slash closeness. All of our Patrion members get one question answered per month on the closeness podcast anonymously of course, visit our Patrion to begin improving your relationship <inaudible> on the <inaudible>. Hi, my name is Tari. I'm your host and this is an exclusive closeness interview today. You're not only tuned into me, but also to a very special friend of mine named Sarah. She's lovely, she's beautiful. She has an infectious voice that's an absolute delight to listen to. It makes me feel great. Just listening to her speak. She's a freelance writer in San Diego, California. She loves telling stories about messy, raw feelings such as fears, anxiety, and body image issues. She also explores positivity and humor through storytelling, through friendship, self-love, body positivity, and chronicling her single life. Post-mastectomy. We have so much here to talk about today and so I'd like to introduce her now. Hi Sarah, welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 01:03 Thank you so much. I'm really excited to be here and I love listening to the show. So I'm really excited to have the opportunity to kind of share my story and have some discussions around all of this.
Speaker 0 01:14 Yeah, I can't begin to tell you how excited I am to have you here because I feel like you have so many unique stories to share and a lot of unusual experience to draw on that I think is really, really beneficial for both men and women to hear. I feel like with what you've shared with me, that you probably tell a particular story a lot and so let's start with something a little bit different. You were talking earlier about how you consider yourself to be demisexual. I wanted to hear a little bit more about that. Maybe you can define what that means for our listeners and then explain how that pertains to you.
Speaker 1 01:50 Absolutely. I think there's the, you know, Google definition and then there's my definition or how it feels to, to be myself as a demisexual. So I kind of explained both. So essentially the definition of demisexual is, is someone who doesn't experience physical attraction until they experience emotional attraction. So it can be very challenging to simply look at a picture, for example, on a dating app or something like that, and think this person is very attractive. I want to sleep with that person because at least for myself, I don't know anything about that person yet. And the physical attraction tends to come with and after the emotional connection is made. And to me, it's not just connecting on an emotional level, but there are so many factors that are important to me. So for example, the way a man stands or the way a man walks, does he push into the ground with his feet as he walk on his tippy toes?
Speaker 1 02:49 Is there somewhere in between? Does he smell? What does he smell like? And, um, what does the sound of his voice and what is the sound of his laugh? And there are so many things for me consider, and one of the things that's challenging as a demisexual is, you know, when you kind of read up online about what it means, um, supposedly it's somewhere in between, um, being very sexual and then being asexual, which is not experiencing attraction or just not being a sexual person. I consider myself to be a very sexual person, but the right things have to all be in the mix. So for example, at this time in my life, it's, it doesn't seem like something that I would be interested in to just simply meet a man at a bar and then immediately go home and have sex. Although I have no problem with friends doing it. There's nothing wrong with it for those who are interested in that and consenting. But for me, I feel so much more sexual attraction once I get to know a little bit more about who a person is, how they treat people, what they believe about a, about people, and just there's so much more involved.
Speaker 0 03:55 That was a great explanation. Do all of those factors that you listed have to line up in order for you to feel sexual attraction? Cause that was quite a list of things. Are there check boxes that need to be hit for example?
Speaker 1 04:07 Yeah. Uh, yeah they do. They all do. I mean, I'm sure there's a spectrum. Like maybe if someone didn't smell amazing but they didn't smell bad, but there were so many other factors, then yeah, I could have that sexual attraction. But essentially I'm looking at so many different factors before I make a decision. <inaudible>
Speaker 0 04:29 Hmm. Sounds like quite a list. We live in a world now where dating apps abound and it is a swipe right. Swipe left culture. If you were to meet someone online, what do you use to go by? If not just their appearance in the tiny little paragraph description they have to describe themselves. How would you even know if you're curious or attracted to them or interested in them?
Speaker 1 04:49 Yeah, that's, it's really hard for me. Um, I find, I, I don't want to write off online dating and say, it just doesn't work for Damian asexuals because I'm sure that it can, but there's this massive barrier that we have to get past and even wanting to meet someone. So for example, when I talk with my girlfriends and, you know, we'll go have dinner, we'll look at our cues, right? Like some of my girlfriends have 50 men in their cues that they're talking with, um, which I think is wonderful. And they'll look at mine and it's either zero or one sounds like a man's dating profile. And they'll be like, why aren't you okay, look at these people. They're fine. Why don't you talk to them? And I'm like, I don't know if I want to meet. I think if I met someone at, you know, in a real world situation, I could, uh, kind of open that up and get more excited so much more quickly. But it's really hard for me to even get excited about meeting these people. And I almost feel like, um, someone asked me the question not too long ago about if dating apps would were to be improved, how would you like to see them improved? And I thought, you know, video or something like that would be such a good way because I really want to see the moving and hear the person speaking.
Speaker 0 06:00 I actually like to really hear the person speaking too and it kind of drives me nuts that so many people are against talking on the phone or having a conversation or video chatting. Everybody wants to keep it to text or in an app. And I just find that increases the barrier. They think they want to get to know you first, but it massively increases the barrier between getting to know them. In fact, there's a large percentage of women who think that they want to get to know someone more on an app, meaning texting back and forth before meeting, before talking on the phone, before doing anything, which in my opinion is the absolute most limiting way to communicate with someone because you can't see emotion feeling expressions, eye contact. In fact, and this actually comes up a lot, you have absolutely no idea if the person on the other end is who they say they are and if they are even a man or a woman.
Speaker 0 06:50 And if someone just happens to be a good writer, that can dramatically affect the way you think you're communicating and connecting. And also people are very careless when you're just texting someone because they don't have a face to the name, so to speak. You don't know the person, you don't feel comfortable or safe. So people are far more likely to just vanish or block or disappear or run away or just leave the communication at a standstill because they feel like they owe you nothing. And if someone just happens to be a good writer or a bad writer, that can dramatically affect how you get to know them. So needless to say, I'm always a big fan for both parties to exchange photos, videos, FaceTime, video chat, phone calls, anything that gives you anything that gives you more of a sense of who that person is before you meet them in person so that it feels even safer.
Speaker 0 07:39 Oddly enough, and I'll be the first one to say, I think video chatting is one of the safest best ways to get to know someone before you meet them for the first time because you're in the safety of your own home or car or living room or any place in the world that you want to sit and you get a sense of what the other person looks like, how they breathe, look, move, act, respond, how comfortable they are with themselves. You get to know all of that before your first date and I think that's such a wonderful way to preempt getting to know someone, but to get back to it turns you on. As I was listening to you talk about being demisexual, I was thinking that maybe some people might think that a lot has to happen for you to get turned on and aroused, but I think it might work a little differently for you. So is it possible for you to meet someone face to face and immediately know that you're sexually attracted to them?
Speaker 1 08:33 Yeah, absolutely. I think that is a common misconception that because there are so many like criteria, if you will, that have to be met, that this must be a long process and it must take me months to find out if I like someone or not. And that's very much not the case. It could be a matter of minutes within meeting someone face face in the real world, not just a picture. But once I have a chance to just sit down with someone or meet them, I'll know right away.
Speaker 0 09:03 Can you tell us a few of your, if you don't mind sharing some of your personal life, your turn-ons and turn-offs. Obviously if someone's stunk horribly or if they dressed terribly, certainly there's very obvious things that are going to turn off most women. But are there more subtle things that are a definite no that you can think of?
Speaker 1 09:22 Yeah, I mean you mentioned smell and these may be more obvious, but if someone smokes or smells like smoke, it's absolutely not going to happen. Um, but even more than that, if I happen to be having dinner or lunch with someone, the way that they treat a waiter or waitress is huge for me. Um, if they're not, if they don't say thank you when food is brought or something like that, it's a massive turnoff.
Speaker 0 09:49 So just to clarify, if you are on a date with someone and it was going really well and you thought you might have sex then later that night, but he didn't say thank you to the waiter or waitress?
Speaker 1 09:58 Well, okay. Potentially. Yeah, because the thing is that's one very specific moment. But if I was really having lunch or dinner with someone, there would be time to see, you know, how they ordered and if they said thank you when they order their food and thank you in the food came and if they complain and if, if a, you know, if anything was wrong, did they handle it in a, in a polite way or it just gives me such an indicator of someone's kindness.
Speaker 0 10:23 Oh, I completely know what you mean. One of the biggest turnoffs for me, something that will take me from being completely interested to not being able to tolerate them at all is when a woman is rude, disrespectful, mean careless or only puts herself first or women who don't come from the heart or who aren't kind. I really, really value case. Anyone hasn't noticed from listening to this podcast. Manners. So what are some things that a man can do that keeps you engaged? Is it a sense of confidence in himself or feeling relaxed or some powerful eye contact?
Speaker 1 11:00 I love those. Yeah, well I love all of those. I love a good eye contact and sometimes I'm not even as good as it and sometimes there will be someone that like you're very good at eye contact and in it to the point where sometimes I'm like, Oh I need to up my game here with this. But it's really, really good. It's really attractive when someone has good eye contact and, and not just eye contact but presence with you in the moment. And are they, you know, they're not on their phone during a date and they're engaging in you. And they're actually listening to what you're saying. Rather than simply only telling stories about themselves.
Speaker 0 11:34 Let me touch on eye contact for a moment. Do you ever feel intimidated by eye contact?
Speaker 1 11:40 If it goes on for a long time? Yes. It doesn't mean that I don't want it and like it, but sometimes I look away for a second and then I come right back.
Speaker 0 11:50 I have a theory that good, strong eye contact with who's attracted to you and you're attracted to them is a very powerful tool. I also have this theory when it comes to male female dynamics in a heterosexual relationship that it should be the man who maintains the eye contact and the woman breaks away first in terms of courting, flirting, sensuality and sexuality. Because breaking eye contact often conveys shyness or submissiveness and generally that's not the role that a man wants to play when courting a woman. Would you agree with that? You are off the hook.
Speaker 1 12:24 Yes, absolutely. I want, you know, and again, I think that the woman needs to make some effort in that too. And so I certainly wasn't saying that. I like to look away the whole date, but every now and then if it's like a long gaze, I'll look away participants that can come right back.
Speaker 0 12:38 <inaudible> just to give a little push. Pull. All right, so to wrap up the subject, how important is it to you that a man has an overall sense of confidence? Does his confidence have to be through the roof? Does it just have to be a general sense of wellbeing? Does a man need to be at the top of his confidence game to have you?
Speaker 1 12:58 Confidence is so sexy. There is a balance though in my opinion, and you can tell the difference between confidence and arrogance and arrogance is a massive turnoff.
Speaker 0 13:08 Oh good. I'm really glad you said that. It's something I want to dive into. Are you able to articulate what you think the difference is? Can you maybe give us a few examples of what someone who's cocky is like versus someone who's authentically confident in your opinion?
Speaker 1 13:23 That's a challenge. I think it's harder to articulate that in terms of body language verbally. There are some things that people can say and we can get into that, but I think in terms of body language, sometimes a woman just has this intuition or just knows that person's a pompous ass or whatever. Right. In terms of, I feel like it's easier to distinguish the difference when it comes to something that a man says. So does he have to bring up examples of all the women he's been with, or does he immediately have to talk about his money on the first date?
Speaker 0 13:56 Are you turned off by hearing stories of other women or are you talking about in the context of a man bragging about Xs or women that he's been with or sexual prowess?
Speaker 1 14:07 Yeah, I mean, I think if we were having a discussion and we wanted to, and it was, um, either a helpful example or a funny story, those could be fine. It's not that there can never be any discussion of previous lovers. It's more that if a man needs to brag, whether it's about how many people he's been with, what he does for a living, how much he travels, how much he makes. Women will sense bragging right away.
Speaker 0 14:32 <inaudible> right. I find that typically women often like to prove themselves with beauty and social status and then men like to do so with how good they claim to be in bed. Money and possessions, their abilities, what they have, what they can provide. And it's sort of like the peacocking show that goes on in the very beginning of dating. Interestingly, there have been times where I have mistaken both women and men for being cocky as opposed to confident. And then as I've gotten to know them, I've realized, Oh, it's more of a confidence thing. They just carry themselves a certain way. They're sensitive like everyone else and that sort of thing. So is there anything more you'd like to add about confidence versus cockiness?
Speaker 1 15:14 You know, I can certainly sense confidence. I think there's not a lot of, there's not as much arrogance in a person's posture and walk and there's a lot of confidence in a person's posture and walk. So the way a man walks can be very, very sexy and it doesn't have to be an exaggerated, silly walk. Um, but just the way that he, you know, pushes into the ground with his feet and um, and stands tall, that can be extremely sexy.
Speaker 0 15:42 Any other details about what makes a man's walk sexy?
Speaker 1 15:47 Well, I know, I know from the, you know, perspective of what men like, right? They like to see the hips move right naturally though. Not some kind of goofy overemphasize thing, but I think really it's the same women, like the same women like to see a man's body functioning the way that it's supposed to, the hips, moving, everything in, line the shoulders back. Um, again, not like, you know, trying to put the shoulders back, but just standing confident and not apologizing for anything and just being, um, who they are.
Speaker 0 16:19 I love what you said about a person's body functioning the way it's supposed to. It kind of says it all. That means there's a natural gate in the walk, the way the arms swing, and there actually is a very natural hip sway when a man walks as well that I think many men try to get rid of with very directional.
Speaker 1 16:36 Absolutely. And when they do that, when they try to get rid of it, it ends up looking like Frankenstein and then it's not sexy.
Speaker 0 16:43 Okay, perfect. Speaking of bodies, I think this is a really good time to transition into body image issues, but before we can do that, Sarah actually has a very unusual story that she shares on multiple podcasts and different mediums. Why don't you take a moment to tell us now about what your story is all about?
Speaker 1 17:03 Yeah, absolutely. So when I was 18 I had genetic testing done and the reason that I had genetic testing done was a, all of the women in my family were getting cancer. They were getting primarily breast cancer at a very young ages. And my aunt had passed away when I was a young child and my mom got breast cancer as well and it was very aggressive, late stage breast cancer. And so it was just frightening that, um, it seemed like it was hereditary that everyone was getting it. So my family and I had genetic testing and found out that we have the BRCA two mutation or some people call it B R, C a N essentially it stands for breast cancer and it is a tumor suppressor gene that's mutated, which means people get these small micro cancers in their body all the time. But they have these tumor suppressor genes that stop them from growing into large cancers.
Speaker 1 18:01 Well, for those who have a Baraka mutation, they don't work. So I was, uh, essentially told my chances of developing breast cancer were around 87%. And it also affects the risk of ovarian cancer and other types of cancer, but primarily breast cancer. And that was something that was kind of always on my mind from the time that I was 18 until now. And I'm 32 now. And, um, I knew that I, there would be a day that would come that I would need to have, um, a prophylactic or preventative double mastectomy in order to not get cancer. And so I waited until I was finished having kids feeding kids and decided that the time was right. Um, not only because I was done having kids, but also as a mother knowing that I needed to keep myself safe and especially as a single mother to, to be there for my kids. So
Speaker 0 18:59 can I ask you a question about that? Is there a time when it becomes too late to have a surgery like this?
Speaker 1 19:06 If you don't have cancer, then no. However, it really has to do with your family history. So a lot of the women in my family got cancer in their thirties or very early forties. So as I approached 32, I began to feel unsafe. And, um, I'm really active in the Baraka community. So I have a lot of girlfriends who have the gene and it just feels like the more that I get to know them, there are so many of them being diagnosed in their twenties so, um, yeah, theoretically someone could go until they're 80 and not get it. Um, but it's unlikely. It's, you know, usually something that people do in their twenties and thirties.
Speaker 0 19:48 This is such a sensitive topic and I can't even imagine what it would be like to be diagnosed with something that affects such a sensitive and integral part of your body. Something that makes a woman feel so feminine, so much like a woman. And then to have to make this horrible choice of when I actually have another female friend who just got this news as well. And it's just baffling to me that when this news is delivered, it's like, Oh, well you've got this gene, so you should probably consider a double mastectomy soon as if it were a simple procedure that you might just deliberate on overnight. But to me, that's gotta be one of the biggest choices of your life. How would a woman navigate this for herself and like when does she know the time is right or if she should or,
Speaker 1 20:34 yeah, I really believe that genetic counseling with a, an actual genetic counselor should be like a mandatory part of genetic testing. It was back when I had the test because did it through our insurance and then we know essentially got the results with a genetic counselor. But now that the tests have become, um, more, uh, prevalent and, and really affordable, which in one regard is such a good thing, you can pay $100 and find out. But if you do that, there's no one there to guide you in those decisions. And to know, I mean, they've given me a statistical range for, well this is your percentage that you're, you know, likely to get cancer within the next five years, 10 years. And that helps you make those decisions. Does it come down to each woman's preference when she feels that time is right? Completely. I mean, I even know women who know they have the gene and don't want to get it done and that's acceptable too.
Speaker 1 21:28 I mean, I feel like as a woman who wants to support other women, I sh we should never shame someone for whatever their decision is, even if it is accepting that larger risk. And some people, it's challenging though because I know, I personally know two women who decided to wait on the surgery and in favor of frequent, uh, surveillance or screenings, which means mammograms and MRIs and both of them got cancer and one of them passed away in her early thirties leaving behind a young son. And it's, Oh my God, you know, every, again, it's an individual decision, but for me it just felt like there was this perfect analogy that someone gave me, which was if you're going to go on a plane, you're going to fly in a plane and they said you have an 87% chance of crashing and you might die. You might not die.
Speaker 1 22:16 You might actually be okay, but would you even bother getting on that plane? Of course you'd never get on the plane. So that's kind of how I made my decision. And so just so we're all clear, there's sort of this window where you can have the surgery that's begins from finding out that you have this gene all the way up until someone comes down with cancer. If you put it off until the point where you get cancer, is it completely irreversible from there? Well, it really depends on, so even among saying I have a Brocka one mutation or I have a BRCA two mutation, then there are so many different specific DNA codes. So that's all the more reason why a genetic counselor is so important, there's no guarantee that that cancer would be a late stage a stage three. It theoretically could be a stage one and something that's easily treatable, but that's not ever occurred in my family.
Speaker 1 23:06 And so we really look at, um, hereditary, you know, links because, uh, it's unlikely that I would get a mild form of cancer. And then that's one of the other things that I used in making my decision to have the mastectomy is that the reconstruction options are quite good when you have it done preventatively. If I were to wait and have a late stage cancer, the reconstruction options might not be good for me. They might not be able to save my nipples, they might not be able to do implants, they might have to take back muscle out. And I didn't want to lose any muscle. So it was the right timing for me. Are there a range of outcomes like
Speaker 0 23:46 you were describing? Seems like maybe for some women this can go very well and for others not so much. Do women for instance always elect to get implants?
Speaker 1 23:55 No. There are so many reconstruction options. It is ridiculous. Um, there's everything ranging from women who, you know, choose to quote unquote go flat or not have reconstruction. And there's of course women who want to have reconstruction, but if they have cancer, they can't. So I think that's a challenge for me is a lot of times when I say the term double mastectomy, people immediately assume it means that I have no breasts whatsoever, which is certainly not the case, which is not the case. So there's that end of the spectrum, right? And then there's reconstruction options where if a woman has enough fat, they can literally take that from her stomach or from anywhere to create breasts for her without using implants. I didn't have enough fat to go that route. I chose implants and stead, but even among those that get implants, they can be placed above the muscle, below the muscle. There are just, people can keep their nipples or they can choose to not keep their nipples there just so many choices.
Speaker 0 24:54 Would there be any reason to not want to keep your nipples?
Speaker 1 24:58 There's about a 1% increase in your risk factor because there's no way to absolutely remove your cancer chance forever. Absolutely not. Because essentially of breast tissue all the way up in your armpits and you're not going to take those out. Um, so having my surgery, my risk has gone down from about 87% down to around 3% or so. Now the general population has about 12% so I'm feeling pretty safe. Right. And if I would have removed my nipples, it would have been about a percentage lower. But, uh, for me it does so much to my confidence and for my mental health that I was willing to take a 1% risk.
Speaker 0 25:34 Absolutely. I think that sounds like hardly a risk at all for what you would gain. Is there ever a chance that a woman can preserve sensation in her breasts when she undergoes this procedure or do you also have to forfeit nipple sensitivity? Breast sensitivity?
Speaker 1 25:49 That is such a great important question. Um, there's a chance it's not common if they have what's called a deep flap, uh, procedure, which is the one where they take fat from a woman's body and not use implants, they will originally have no sensation. And then there's a special tool that they can use to do what they call recent station over time. So it is possible. However, if a woman has a double mastectomy like me and then gets implants, there's not going to be any sensation in the nipples. So I can feel the sides of my breasts but not
Speaker 0 26:24 okay. From a purely biological perspective, of course, we know that women have breasts so that they can feed their children. But in our society we also prize them as it were, as being something other almost to the point where they have a personality unto themselves, something to show off or something that other men, women want to enjoy, look at or take pleasure in. How important is it to you to have, and this may seem obvious, but breasts that feel sexually attractive to you. In other words, is that a fundamental part of being a woman for you? Not so much from the place of being able to nurse children, but does the quality of you feeling within yourself desirable, feminine, sexy, sensual, womanly, tie into having attractive breasts? And can you speak to us a little bit about your relationship with your breasts?
Speaker 1 27:16 It's huge to me and you know, I think it's hard for us sometimes to admit that because we don't want to come off as vain. But I love having beautiful breasts and I was so afraid that I wouldn't be able to keep my net balls. I mean I consulted multiple surgeons and I think the first thing that I said when I woke up out of, you know, with anesthesia and everything was twice still have nipples. It's huge. And especially as a single woman, I feel, um, I, I can't even imagine the pain that someone must feel to not be able to keep their breasts.
Speaker 0 27:54 I completely agree. Let's take everything you've shared and bring it now into the real world, which is someone who's had the surgery, had this operation, your a beautiful, desirable woman. You are single. How do you navigate dating? You and I were chatting earlier and I have given a lot of thought to as well. When, if ever is the appropriate time to share with your partner before they unwrap you, see you naked for the first time or undress you that there might be something there that they're not expecting or that they're just not used to. Do you have some thoughts on this?
Speaker 1 28:33 I do. I think it really depends on, you know, what it's gonna look like and is it going to shock their partner or not. So for me, you know, after having three surgeries this year, I still have a, my nipples, my own skin, I have implants. I don't feel, um, you know exactly the same as if I would if I hadn't had surgery because I have scarring around my nipples. And then on the breast kind of going down in the middle, um, essentially it looks like I had a breast lift, which I did. It doesn't look like it would shock a man. And yet at the same time I've thrown that idea around and debated, do I want to tell someone before and you know, kind of kill the moment, the beautiful, exciting moment with some kind of warning. Like, Hey, just so you know, before you take my shirt off.
Speaker 1 29:22 And then just getting at, especially for a woman like that excitement and that moment is so important and keeping arousal. So I've decided that for me, I don't, I don't wish to discuss this ahead of time now. I certainly write about it and share about it on Instagram and blogs and things like that. So if someone reads about it ahead of time, great. All the easier for me, but I don't want to discuss it in the heat of the moment and I don't want to discuss it on a first date and if it comes up, you know, down the road I'm always open to discussing it. But at the same time I think if I was a woman who was not able to have reconstruction or either not keep my nipples or not have breasts, then I feel like that would for me be appropriate to discuss with them ahead of time because anytime there's going to be some kind of a shock, I think it's important to discuss. It's, I think it's only fair. I mean if a man had something that would shock me when he became naked, I might even feel embarrassed with like the reaction that I gave. Like I need time to process it. Right. And it doesn't mean that I wouldn't necessarily want to move forward and have sex with them. It just means like I need to understand this a little bit more.
Speaker 0 30:31 It's really interesting to hear your response about how important savoring and preserving the moment of arousal is for you staying aroused and out of your head, not ruining a moment and for people listening, hearing that at least for this woman that is so important that she's willing to risk whatever may come as a result of a discussion about it all to keep the sexual attraction or the energy high and then I'm also hearing you recommending to other women that they evaluate how surprising or shocking they think this news might be when they share it and then using that as one of the ways to decide if this is something you want to share, disclose or talk about before being intimate. I think that when we are undressing our partners for the first time, I think there's an unconscious expectation for there to be no surprises or something that's going to take you by surprise and this is such a critically important subject for both men and women in whatever role you're playing because I think it falls on the partner who is discovering this about their partner to be unusually caring, understanding, gentle and sympathetic.
Speaker 0 31:43 If you see something like scarring or marks or the absence of nipples and at the same time it, Hmm. I really think it falls on each woman individually to give careful consideration to how much they want to disclose. I was trying to think about this myself and while I'm not opposed to discovering it, I also personally don't think I would mind if someone let me know beforehand, especially if they told me in a conversation before things got sexual or intimate, but I could also understand why a woman wouldn't want to put herself in that type of vulnerable position before even knowing if she wants to go all the way on. Like Sarah was saying, she doesn't want to be treated differently or draw attention to it or have a discussion about it. Have the heat of the moment stop and be like, well, what is this and what happened? Are you okay that you don't want to feel like someone who's just been through a surgery that you want to feel like a,
Speaker 1 32:39 I'm tired of feeling like a patient. It's been, you know, 16 years that I've been seen a medical professional every three months and I'm tired of it and I'm certainly open to discuss my story, but I don't want to kill the mood for me.
Speaker 0 32:54 Yes, that is completely understandable. Do you think then that there ever is a time where it would be to a woman's benefit or more helpful to her to actually take the step and disclose what she's been through prior to being intimate or having sex? For instance, what might come to mind is if a woman doesn't have her nipples anymore.
Speaker 1 33:15 Yeah, I think that's it. It's going to be, if it's going to shock the other partner regardless of what sex they are, then I think it should be disclosed. So for me, you know, not, not disclosing at this time in my life, I don't think that I'm going to continue to like disclose to everyone unless they read it online, has to do with the fact that I feel like my breasts are in this realm of something that people could simply mistake for someone who happened to have a, uh, a breast lift or who happened to have implants or who happened to have a reduction or something. There's some level of scarring, but I don't think it would shock people. Right. However, if I had, you know, no nipples, I personally would feel like I would need to disclose not just for their benefit, but for mine because if I saw some shock, look, I might be really hurt.
Speaker 0 34:03 Yeah. I think that if someone who's gone through this feels like they might be embarrassed by someone else's bad response or poor response or lack of tact or any response other than total acceptance, I think disclosure is worthwhile because you're going to help eliminate a lot of that I think. Yeah, so I want to look at something now that's extremely difficult to even phrase which is in an ideal situation, whether you're a man or woman, whoever's had a surgery, whatever's happened to your body, whatever issues you're going through. In an ideal world, your partner isn't even bothered. They love you for who you are or like you for who you are or there's a total acceptance of you. They aren't bothered by marks or scarring or what have you, but I'm certain there's also going to be times where some people might not feel comfortable proceeding sexually. This is such a sensitive, intimate topic. How does one go about letting their other partner down or conveying to them that for whatever reason they don't want to continue to be sexual? What is the ideal response or reaction, if any, that will not leave your partner feeling bad or hurt? What can we do?
Speaker 1 35:18 I have to be honest, I don't think there's any way that two people can be actively getting ready to have sex and then the man says, I am no longer interested. However delicately he says it, the woman's going to be hurt. I know I would be hurt. At the same time, if he doesn't, if he's not interested, he's not in any obligation and you know, you know, that is something that he would need to do just to say, I'm not feeling comfortable with this right now.
Speaker 0 35:44 Right. I'll put forth an idea. I agree with you that if you're planning on having sex with someone and everything seems fine and then suddenly someone decides not to, that there's no real good way to pick up the pieces. It raises such an interesting subject about how whether you're a man or woman, if you reach the point of deciding that you don't want to have sex with someone, what an appropriate responses. And I think what's critical is number one, that you don't freak out or even have a large reaction or even dive into a conversation about it in the heat of the moment. You might be having some interesting thoughts on the inside. You might even be freaking out a little bit on the inside, but it's far more important to preserve your surprise or shock or whatever it might be when you consider what this other person might've gone through who is still willing to be sexual with you and showing respect and consideration for them.
Speaker 0 36:39 To me, it seems healthy that say you're ramping things up, things are getting really hot and then someone discovers something about the other person that makes them not want to move forward. My thinking is that decelerating everything in the same smooth way that you ramped it up is what's going to be really helpful just sweetly and lovingly, gradually backing off. So whether a woman is noticing something about a man that makes her feel that she's unable to continue or vice versa instead of freaking out or getting really uncomfortable or insecure or nervous, just slowly moving away from the process. So if you are right at the point where you're about to have sex and everything was hot and heavy and that intensity is there, slowed down the kissing, soften the touching, just ease off and back into a place of what I think would be really nice is even cuddling.
Speaker 0 37:31 It might be slightly confusing, it might not be the most comfortable, but I guarantee that it's going to be 10 times more comfortable than making a scene or getting quiet or getting uncomfortable or going through something that you don't want to do and now you're acting funny because of it. I can speak for myself and say that if a woman suddenly decided that she didn't want to be with me for whatever reason and we were already halfway or 99% there, that a soft easing off like that would really make a difference just until the climate is a little bit different. And then if it's necessary, maybe have a conversation. Does something like that sound right to you?
Speaker 1 38:06 Yeah. I so appreciate that. And that's what I was going to say in terms of you mentioned touch, um, uh, you know, I haven't experienced this, but if there was a time where, uh, a man suddenly said to me, I don't feel comfortable moving forward based on this or whatever, I wouldn't want him to immediately physically back away. Like, ah, wait, it would make me feel so rejected but to, you know, touch my arms and um, you know, struck my back or whatever and speak in a calm voice and maybe ask questions but not drilling me
Speaker 0 38:38 so to speak. Yeah, I think that stuff is so critical. It's like everyone needs and wants to be cared for, but especially in moments of sensitivity, those extra cuddles and reassurance and love and eye contact go a long way because you were with this person right up until that point you were kissing them and touching them and hugging them until then. To me, there should be no reason why that can't continue. And of course we're going to talk about both sides. So we just spoke about if you don't want to continue now, if you do and you do plan on having great, incredible sex, I'd love to hear from your own words, what are some things a man can do such as just completely ignore it altogether. You're probably not wanting extra attention on your breasts.
Speaker 1 39:20 Yeah, I don't want extra attention. I want the regular amount of attention that he would give. I want normal, I should not use the word normal because that's such a mess. You know what is normal to anyone, but I want, I just want great sex period.
Speaker 0 39:38 Right? Sarah messily wants great sex, so now we're going to get messy with messily. Tell us a little bit about, in your mind, what makes great sex and especially for people listening, like what specifically happens in your mind that makes it great. Connectedness. Eye contact. Oh, do you mean like closeness,
Speaker 1 39:58 closeness. Totally, completely. Now that's so true though. A lot of touch. A lot of it can be different levels of talk. There could be some talk or not much, but just staying really present and really focused and really being in the moment. And it's okay to ask your partner, is this okay or should I do it a different way? And then it's okay to speak up and say, why don't you move your hand? Communication is good.
Speaker 0 40:27 All right. So those sound like some pretty good broad strokes. I don't know, Sarah, is that really all there is to it that makes it hot for you? And do you feel like there are things that might make it hotter?
Speaker 1 40:40 Well, yeah, I mean I think everybody likes something a little different. I know what I like to, I suppose to get into it, of course you're supposed to get into it. I think it's important that two people, whether they've just met or known each other for a long time, that they connect in a level that they not just can speak about. But like since what each other like, so everybody is really different in terms of their preferences. So, you know, I might like it more rough or um, you know, everyone's a little bit different.
Speaker 0 41:12 They are hard. Welcome to my Ted talk. No, I think you summed it up perfectly. Okay, so in the bedroom, Sarah, does your demisexuality come into play or is there a primal part of your brain that takes over that for example, I don't know. Just wants it hard once in awhile. Yeah, the
Speaker 1 41:34 whole part takes over. Because the thing is, if I'm already in the bedroom, then I've already made that choice. I've already, you know, that person has checked my boxes that it's time to go. <inaudible>
Speaker 0 41:48 so this is the, and this is so interesting, I think especially for a man to hear because once you've made the choice, your brain flips, you're in a state, you're in a mood where it's time to just do it and get down to it. Right? But before that happens, all these very seemingly non-sexual cues and checkboxes and things and pressure into the ground. When a man walks Lottie confidence in the way he speaks and smells and tastes and all of this, it all comes into play. I mean, we all like those qualities for sure. In the opposite sex. In your opinion, do you think it's possible for your switch to get flipped and be overridden by someone's maybe presence or masculinity or some quality that you like where you're like, Oh, I don't even have to go down my checklist, I'm just really aroused.
Speaker 1 42:37 Absolutely. I think it's possible. So maybe it doesn't happen frequently, but certainly there's something that you just can't really put into words. If you're in someone's presence and you're just like overwhelmed, do I? And you're just like, wow. <inaudible>
Speaker 0 42:50 so, um, Sarah, do you use a vibrator or toy or some sort of self-pleasuring tool?
Speaker 1 42:57 I do. Um, I like that there's certainly a lot of them that I haven't tried that I'd like to try. But right now I'm really into the womanizer. I think it's called womanizer 5,000, which is just a clit stimulator and it uses suction, so it's supposed to be more like oral sex.
Speaker 0 43:12 Hmm. I see. That being said, are you more of a fan of external clitoral stimulation versus say dodos rabbits toys and things that go inside?
Speaker 1 43:21 Well, you mentioned the rabbit. That's something that I have been wanting to try because that supposedly has both. Right? It does. I'd be interested in, I mean for me like internal stimulation feels very good and very wonderful, but I typically won't come that way. So that's why I like the external stimulation.
Speaker 0 43:39 So then what is it about the ease in which a woman can come by herself that becomes so different when she's with a partner? Sometimes.
Speaker 1 43:48 Yeah, it's um, it is the fears and the insecurities. There's nothing to hide when you're alone. You don't care about your scars, you don't care about your whatever it is you gained a couple pounds or whatever. Of course, you're still gonna just experience self-pleasure and there's no fears. And then when you're with someone for a woman, a lot of times we're constantly thinking, what is this person thinking of me at the moment? And does he noticing my scars as he care? Or, you know, is he really turned off but just doing it anyway or is he actually really interested? Um, and there's a hundred different fears that we are, I don't know, maybe program to kind of have in our mind like what does he think about the way my stomach looks and what does he think about this and that and those things. They take us away from pleasure, right? So we still made like get there, but it's going to take longer.
Speaker 0 44:42 Yeah. One of the most common things I hear is women being in their heads and not being able to get out of their heads. To me, when I hear that, it's kind of like when someone recommends that you drop it and let it go. We all fundamentally understand how to pick something up off the table and let it go. It physically drops, but when it comes to just letting something go, you're talking about a very specific mental process. It's a focus or lack thereof. So what I'm getting at is do you have any tips for women that are very specific that might help them get out of their heads? Something beyond the godawful pop culture advice that we hear of just let go, just relax and just breathe. Which of course is someone simply demanding for us to do what we are trying to do and unable to do anyway.
Speaker 1 45:27 I mean I think the most important thing is to like fully admit that that's something that I still struggle with too. And that that's okay, but more time that you freak yourself out thinking I'm in my head thinking, Oh now I'm taking too long because I'm thinking about my body. It's just this vicious cycle and it's just going to get worse. So I think it's important to try to focus on things that we love. So I love my legs and sometimes I'll, you know, if I'm feeling a little bit down about a different part of my body, I'll look at one of the pictures of myself that I really like or, or put on really short shorts because I love to enjoy my legs. So there's just different parts that we can feel really positive about and that I think will help us let go of the things that were maybe fearing.
Speaker 0 46:12 Yeah, you're bringing up body image issues too, which is good cause that's something we'll probably get into next. And I think patience, patience and sex is so critically important because someone's not always going to be hard and someone's not always going to be wet and someone's not always going to be ready right away. Especially for those who are very in tuned or caretakers are very concerned about their partner. They get a little overly concerned, are you okay? Is everything all right? What's wrong? Can I do anything? These types of comments really put people in their head and especially if it comes from a place of fear or with a startling remark while you're in the middle of love making or having sex, it can really pull you out of the moment. And then there's also the other end of the spectrum, which I hear about as well, which is the woman looks down and checks for hardness and doesn't continue.
Speaker 0 47:02 If it's not. Some women will find themselves becoming massively insecure and assuming that they must not be attractive enough while others actually enjoy it or think of it as a fun challenge. So anyhow, you hear these stories of women who touch it, flick it, squeeze it, flop it around, give it a poke, seeing if it's ready for her, and then if not, she refuses to touch it again. Then internalizing, I must not be turning him on. This must be rejection. I'm not sexy enough. Pretty enough. Good. They'll even feel downright insecure and want to bring the whole thing to an end or even leave just because a man doesn't get hard enough, quick enough for her without ever taking into consideration how she might feel if a man did that to her and what his feelings must be as well. When I hear these stories, I think to myself, wow, can you imagine if a man just poked around down there with his finger and stuck it inside of a woman dry as can be determined after a brief poking that you were just too dry for sex and then decided to get up and leave.
Speaker 0 48:01 It's like a story that would make the news. But all of this to say that things come up for both men and women that keep us in our heads and sometimes we are contributing to the problem rather than helping to solve it or Sue the person who's involved. So I think that patients, insects is so, so important for whether it's two women to man a man and a woman for everybody to practice. And what that means is you're not sitting around waiting but your encouraging discovering and like loving your partner and finding a way to figure out what helps them get out of their head and Sue them and relax them. That sort of thing. Did you want to speak to men's body issues versus women's body issues? Did you have anything to say about that?
Speaker 1 48:46 Well, I think that it is important to address that men can have, you know, low self esteem or body image issues just like women can. My personal opinion is that women probably deal with it more frequently. However I think they address them differently. I just feel like it's such a, we, you know, we were talking earlier about disclosure in terms of if there's something that you feel is going to surprise your partner, and I feel like it's such a common woman thing, even though maybe my friends haven't gone through mastectomy, right? So maybe it's just me among my group of friends and yet we all deal with the same like do our breasts look good enough? Does our stomach look good enough? Right? How is our weight? Like we all have the same kind of fears. That's the challenge, right? We are, well, I think societaly we're conditioned to hate ourselves and think that we're not good enough. And then we just constantly see these images of people who are photo-shopped or who have had all these surgeries and that's what we're comparing. We're not really comparing to normal people.
Speaker 0 49:45 What does that mean, your conditioned to hate yourself?
Speaker 1 49:48 Well, I mean, I just think from a very, from a very young age, we're taught even if we had the best parents in the world who loved us dearly, that, you know, we're comparing to things that are not achievable. And so the hate yourself essentially comes from being disappointed in ourselves. Never being able to achieve the ideal, not being thin enough, not having big enough breasts, not having a large enough but not having long enough eyelashes, not having straight enough hair. I mean there's just a million problems and then we're constantly sold, you know, products that fix problems that we don't have.
Speaker 0 50:28 Yeah. When I hear the words enough or too, too big, too small, too fat, too skinny, big enough, small enough, skinny enough. I find all those words appalling because according to who, and certainly not what I say your, I don't mean you Sarah, but I mean certainly not your definition of what's enough. Because I feel like so many of us have distorted and skewed images of what we think enough is because most people don't feel that, look what they have is enough. So then it's never enough. And someone else's too big is too small to someone else and someone else's small is too big. Right. That example that I just gave is like the core reason why self-acceptance, self-love and accepting yourself the way you are is so critical because there's no global consensus on what perfect is or just right is or skinny enough or fat enough or large enough breasts or what have you and someone else always has bigger ones or smaller ones or more tone ones or whatever.
Speaker 0 51:23 You just can't get to the bottom of what perfect is and so to me it's important to have a lot of self love and a lot of self-respect. Sometimes you partner up with someone who you have great sexual chemistry with or, or you fall in love with them as a person but you don't really align on like she's not really my type where I don't really, I'm actually not that attracted to him, but I love who he is as a person. I actually think that being physically attracted, especially in the direction from a man to a woman is important because it just helps so much with body image issues. So now when it comes to body images use regarding men, did you have some more you want to say about that?
Speaker 1 52:04 Well, I mean I think I've known men over the years to have them. I don't, I don't know if they're as frequent. And for some it might be really hard because they don't maybe feel as comfortable talking about them or addressing them.
Speaker 0 52:17 What are a few of them as far as you're concerned?
Speaker 1 52:20 Um, you know, I've the one, I think women talk about as the size of their tick. Right. But this is an interesting point because like I feel like, you know, we were having the discussion earlier that, you know, women might be like, Oh, you know, should I tell him my stomach is saggy or my breasts have stretch marks or whatever it is. I would never in my wildest dreams think that a man would be like in the heat of the moment and just be like, Hey, just so you know, my Dick's a little bit small, it's just not going to happen. They're going to, they're going to pull it out and they're going to be like, Oh, I'm the best guy ever. Like that's what men do. Sorry.
Speaker 0 52:58 No, no, no, no, no. My plan is a perfect size. Why you are laughing. It is the right size for you to enjoy.
Speaker 1 53:06 Right?
Speaker 0 53:08 So a body image issue for a man might be small size,
Speaker 1 53:12 right? But with a woman, you're typically knowing right away by looking at her. Even if she has her clothes on and with the Mannatech you have no idea.
Speaker 0 53:19 You don't know until you know. And this is what makes it really hard because that's something you can't, you fundamentally cannot change that. I mean, especially for a man, right? Right. Like there's just no if, ands or buts. You get what you get.
Speaker 1 53:37 I'll say something. I mean, the thing is I think too, just like we were talking about, there's no perfect, you know, standard for what a woman needs to look like. I think men sometimes think if they're, you know, Dick is smaller than their friends or whatever, that it's the end of the world, but there's this hilarious meme that I saw online, which was big Dick doesn't equal good Dick, which is the theory is that, you know, a woman could still be, I don't know, maybe if it was teeny tiny, that'd be really bad, but like a woman could still be really attracted to a man who maybe isn't huge, but he knows what to do with his body and he still has that confidence.
Speaker 0 54:12 Yes. Again, I think finding that confidence, whether you're a man or a woman, despite what you might feel is a shortcoming or what you might feel is not adequate enough for whomever that might be. Finding confidence within that is huge. Interestingly, I've heard both sides from women almost equally that size doesn't matter. It's all in how you use it and what you do with it and how sensual you are. And then also on the other end, women who say out loud or to themselves, Oh man, I would never have sex. The man with a small cock, in fact, many downright crave King cock. It's actually common to hear a lot that this is something that women won't stand for or tolerate. Which is interesting because it's a little bit like cock shaming, which is similar to body shaming in so far as there's nothing anyone can do about this. If they're afflicted with it and there's nothing they can do to change it.
Speaker 1 55:02 Uh, yeah. I, I mean among my girlfriends, I know people that will say that, you know, Oh no, no, I'm not going to be with anyone unless they're caucus. Huge. But I just, I
Speaker 0 55:11 see now that's like girl locker room talk, right? She couldn't possibly sleep with a guy unless his cock was huge. Right. And so you'll hear guys say, well, I can't be with a girl unless she's got boobs this size or a butt. That's that size. All this to say that whether that's right or wrong, whether it's good or bad, these things do exist. These preferences exist. And people think and feel this way and consequently we are convinced that we need these things to enjoy ourselves or have great sex. This brings me to another point that I think we live in a world nowadays where people feel one of two ways when we're talking about how you should feel about everyone else. On the one hand, we've got a lot of hate, a lot of shame, a lot of negative comments, a lot of insults. You can find it under any comment section on any Facebook page or on YouTube where people just tear other people apart.
Speaker 0 56:00 No one's a fan of that, but it's also interesting to see what the polar opposite has to offer people who are on the other side and carry this belief that everything is okay and everything is beautiful and no matter what anyone thinks and no matter what anyone does, we should just completely accept them for how they are and who they are. It shouldn't matter what their behavior is and I think that's also very dangerous. I agree with that. When it to general acceptance of the population being friendly towards people and polite and cordial that there should be yes, global acceptance. It shouldn't matter who you are, what you look like, what you do, any of that stuff. However, there's a big, big difference and this is where I think people get caught up or lost or don't realize the difference when it comes to who you are sexually attracted to and what your preferences are.
Speaker 0 56:49 Your sexual preferences to me are uniquely yours. No one can tell you what you should or should not like and that's massively important to remember when you're getting involved with someone in relationship. To me here and under these conditions, it's extremely appropriate to say or recognize within yourself, well, I like a guy with broader shoulders or I like a girl with a bigger butt or fuller thighs or smaller breasts or larger breasts or whatever it might be. This shouldn't be shameful or shamed or insulting to someone else. It's I think, inappropriate for someone to be offended about your preferences and I'll say that one more time. I think it's inappropriate for someone to be offended about your preferences or expressing your preferences. I like these kind of guys or these kind of girls, big ones, small ones, little ones, fat ones, skinny ones, tall ones, short ones, whatever it is.
Speaker 0 57:41 You're allowed to have a preference. This is why it becomes critically important to pick a partner that you're attracted to. And to me, that's such a critical realization. I almost wish I could tell every teenager that growing up is there's always going to be tons of people who are attracted to you no matter what you look like. You don't have to run out and make all these changes to yourself. I. E. butt implants, breast implants, lash extensions, tons of makeup, lip injections and so forth to be liked or to be accepted or loved or to be sexually desirable. But to bring it back to where we were going, I think there's merit in carefully selecting your mate for a variety of reasons. Yes that they tick all your boxes, but if you've got a thing, an unusual thing, I do think you should look into why you have this unusual thing.
Speaker 0 58:27 For instance, when a tiny woman prefers a 250 pound muscle-bound guy, but she's five one and 95 pounds, I think it's worth looking into. Is she trying to feel protected about something or does she feel unsafe in the world in some way? And when a guy likes some of these Umay C8 it are almost anorexic looking women, is that really a sexual preference or is there something going on psychologically with you? Things like that aside. I do think it's really important to acknowledge your sexual desires and give yourself permission to fulfill them with your preferences.
Speaker 1 59:03 Yeah, I mean I, I think that's important and I think maybe even if you work cited in the beginning of eventually as the excitement dies down, then it's going to feel even more like settling. Do you have a particular type of man that you're attracted to physically? No. I have a minimum age range over 18 presumably. I am not interested in dating anyone younger than me ever. Um, or even really my age is not gonna not gonna fly. Um, but it doesn't need, the person doesn't need to look a certain way.
Speaker 0 59:35 You're not alone in the arena of women who love to date older men. What is it about a man who's older than you that you find sexually attractive versus say some of these more boyish or model esque archetypes?
Speaker 1 59:49 Fair enough. I still not exciting. It's, I know that it's a flawed, it's this assumption that they're going to be more mature and that not all older men are more mature, but I still, I can't talk myself out of it. I'm just not interested in being with anyone who's not at least a little bit older than me.
Speaker 0 00:07 Right. And that right there is Sarah setting her own boundary about a sexual preference. She has it. She feels this way. Even if she acknowledges there may not be logic behind it. It's how she feels. And so therefore that's how it's going to go. And then I also want to touch on once more. We spoke about how you enjoy womanizers, which is very unusual for women to like such a thing.
Speaker 1 00:25 Men who are women as there's toys,
Speaker 0 00:28 right? Just the toy who's a womanizer. Do you feel like there's a frequency to the amount of times that you enjoy pleasuring yourself daily or weekly as it contributes to your, uh, wellness
Speaker 1 00:39 to my wellness, definitely. Of course everyone's different, but for me, once a day, sometimes twice or three times a day.
Speaker 0 00:48 Finally, boy, am I glad you just said that. I've got to repeat what she said. She pleasures herself once to three times per day for her wellness and happiness.
Speaker 1 00:58 It is happiness in it, right? But there's more to that. Like there is so much like actual scientific research that the more that you, um, pleasure yourself, become in tuned with your body whether you orgasm or not, but certainly orgasms help that you become more confident, that self-love becomes easier, that you don't struggle with body image issues enough because you know your body.
Speaker 0 01:21 I've been so excited to have a woman come on the show and truthfully share that she comes one to five plus times per day. I almost want to do an interview series where that's a regular question and we hear how frequently women masturbate, which is quite a lot because I didn't want to come from my mouth first. We have this idea that men are so much more sexual or only want sex, but almost every woman who I speak to sleep with or talk to comes every day. It's like how they start their day or wind it down. And I'm sure there are millions of people who don't. But I also just wanted to paint this very sex positive picture that taking care of yourself, pleasuring yourself, loving yourself is a wonderful thing.
Speaker 1 02:03 Right. And I think I would be curious to know if that falls under like a normal range of, uh, you know, how often women come or not. You know, it certainly doesn't affect my decision, but I think the thing about it is that we don't really talk about it as much, especially with um, for women might talk about it among our group of women are our best friends, but we don't talk about it openly and I think that's a problem.
Speaker 0 02:26 That's actually something I wanted to ask you. Do you masturbate as frequently when you're having sex with someone? Like in addition to and on top of those times that you're with someone?
Speaker 1 02:36 Yeah.
Speaker 0 02:39 And if you have good sex, will you still maybe go home and masturbate later that night or
Speaker 1 02:43 I mean if it was in the evening then no, I'm tired. I like to sleep. It would depend on when. So if it was like in the daytime, maybe I would that night
Speaker 0 02:53 one to three times per day. Perfect. So yes. Effectively when you do, what are you using as your material to stimulate yourself? Maybe for instance, if you have recently had sex with someone, is it him that's on your mind or someone else or some other sort of fantasy or is it just generally the idea of being, well, you know,
Speaker 1 03:15 it could be, I like to switch it up so you know, sometimes I'll watch porn but I'm not all the time. More often I like to think about one person and you know, the idea of me being with that person and that's perfect for me.
Speaker 0 03:30 Perfect for you. Just like your appearance on the show today was absolutely perfect for us and I think everybody's going to love, love, love this. Wow. I cannot thank you enough for being here. You are so much fun. I really appreciated your willingness to flirt and play and connect and share so much on such a spectrum of emotions from things that are extremely difficult to things that are exciting to me, that takes a real <inaudible> particular personality to do and I just think it's incredible. The more people hear and understand how amazing closeness can be, no matter who you are, no matter what you look like, no matter what you like, the better it is for our world. So thank you so much, Sarah. For those of you who would love to follow Sarah on Instagram, especially if your type is beautiful, that address is at Sarah messily Davis, M, E S, S, a, L. I. And you could also read her blog posts, which are very fascinating, very raw at www dot Sarah messily, davis.com so yeah, this has been a lot of fun. I can't wait to hear how it comes out.
Speaker 1 04:32 It's been fun for me. Thank you.
Speaker 0 04:33 It's been a pleasure. Thank you for listening. We hope you've enjoyed this immensely. To learn more about what we do, visit, get closeness.com and to donate to our Patrion or have one of your questions answered on the closeness podcast. Visit patrion.com forward slash closeness and remember, stay close.
