Interview: The intimate adventures of a 48 year old mother

[00:00:00] Speaker A: You. [00:00:01] Speaker B: Hi, and welcome back to another edition of Closeness, the interview series. My name is Tari, and you're listening to the Intimate adventures of a 48 year old mother. I wanted to piggyback the last episode we created about the adventures of a 21 year old traveling girl with this one, a woman who's having her own adventures on the other side of life. The interview remains anonymous, but we thought it would be fun once we started talking and chatting about what we do here on the podcast, to include her in the narrative as well. So in this episode, you're going to get the usual dialogue driven, heavy monologues from me. While we also dialogue with her, I think she adds something really special to the podcast. And, of course, I always appreciate a woman's perspective as well. To tell you a little bit about her, she's newly single after being in a marriage for many, many years, and she's also had a long history of living under certain cultural norms. So I thought it would be wonderful for us to have a conversation today about her very personal and intimate life. So this episode leaps directly into that, just so you're not taken off guard by how quickly we get into things. And so, without further ado, my Persian friend, welcome to the show. [00:00:59] Speaker A: Hi. [00:01:00] Speaker B: Hello. It's good to be here with you. [00:01:02] Speaker A: Thank you. [00:01:02] Speaker B: Yes, we have a lot of topics to jump into, but you were just starting to tell me that you've had some pretty unique experiences recently. I don't want to shock our audience, but it wasn't necessarily a threesome. [00:01:17] Speaker A: No, we didn't have threesomes. We tried DP. [00:01:21] Speaker B: Okay. That's very sharp contrast, considering the person you were with was actually against threesomes. What was the reasoning behind that? [00:01:28] Speaker A: Never felt comfortable with it. He met the girl that I had met before, and he didn't feel comfortable. [00:01:36] Speaker B: Now, if you would have had a threesome, would it have to have been with the couple, or would the woman have been able to play with you? [00:01:42] Speaker A: Just the two women, you mean? Yeah, I've tried that. It's a little boring. Threesome is the best. When you're with a woman, you got to have a guy. Otherwise, I think it's boring. I was saying I think it's good to have a guy. [00:01:55] Speaker B: I agree. [00:01:56] Speaker A: I think so. Yeah. Because after a while, it's like, what else do you do? If you don't have a toy, what. [00:02:00] Speaker B: Else do you do? [00:02:01] Speaker A: But the passion of a woman and understanding is what I think drives a lot of that as well. I also feel like when women are hurt they go to their comfort zone, which is another woman. I really, really have seen that happen a lot. [00:02:15] Speaker B: You mean when they've been hurt by men? [00:02:17] Speaker A: By men. They feel their comfort in their surrounding and they tap into their girlfriends more and they just want to be with women. They feel like they can be more understood. [00:02:28] Speaker B: That's a really soft, nice perspective. Are you seeing this more than once or are you seeing it just from like one particular girlfriend that you're talking about? [00:02:35] Speaker A: No, I just think I've talked to enough women to know that definitely there is a lot of women want to be with other women, but they are not open to it and consequences may want them to have the openness one is when there are hurts or it's in us, we just don't want to bring it up. I really believe that every woman want to be with another woman. I really, truly believe that. It's a curiosity. [00:02:58] Speaker B: Well, do you think just having the experience is what they want? Once or twice? Or you mean maybe they want to date or be with or have relationships at first. [00:03:07] Speaker A: Maybe it starts if you are a straight person, it starts as a comfort thing and then it may develop to something. For me it was more of a trying it out. [00:03:17] Speaker B: How old were you when you tried it out? [00:03:19] Speaker A: I tried it out when I was in my twenty s. The first time, earlier this year. And all that. [00:03:25] Speaker B: And all that. [00:03:26] Speaker A: No, it's fine. [00:03:27] Speaker B: But you find that if it's just with one woman, then you get bored. [00:03:30] Speaker A: For me it was boring. [00:03:32] Speaker B: So you think it's boring? What do you think a woman who has been hurt by other men gains from being with other women? What is she getting out of that? Safety, security. [00:03:42] Speaker A: Safety, security for sure. Trust. I feel like the trust. [00:03:45] Speaker B: TrusT in terms of like not cheating and breaking up or trust in many levels, yeah. [00:03:51] Speaker A: Just being truthful. Not to say men are not. I just go back into when a woman's hurt. I think that's a very safety spot that they want to explore. I've seen that a lot. It's crazy. I always knew that existed. But I really see it right now in my little community, which doesn't say a lot, but it does say that that's what's going on in women in general. [00:04:12] Speaker B: I think there's something to saying that what happens in the micro can also be seen in the macro. That means if you see it in a small community, chances are it's also possibly happening in a larger community. So you think it's a secretive subject? [00:04:26] Speaker A: Absolutely. Because it has a stigma, just like anything else. [00:04:29] Speaker B: And that's what I want to talk to you about. I was talking to you earlier and I said, I think it's 8 million times more difficult for a man to come out and say, I'm gay, I'm bi, whatever it is, than for a woman to just say, yeah, I'm bisexual, or true. I mean, I guess unless you're in, I don't know, who knows, the Hollywood industry or some big corporation. But generally speaking, from everywhere I've been on the planet, except for a few particular countries, it's usually embraced. So tell me, what is the stigma? [00:04:58] Speaker A: The stigma is just the culture, the social aspect that is not accepted. Just like smoking pot is not accepted. Kissing women in public, people don't accept that. At least in the US they don't. [00:05:11] Speaker B: When you say they don't accept it, what happens? [00:05:13] Speaker A: They judge it. It's a judgment. [00:05:15] Speaker B: You mean a thought process. [00:05:18] Speaker A: True, a thought process, exactly. And a thought process. You can not pay attention to it. Of course. [00:05:25] Speaker B: I think if men see two women kissing, for the most part, they're just going to be very excited, of course. Or intrigued. So who's judging? The society is judging men and women. [00:05:36] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Men and women, especially in religious communities. Oh, well, yeah, I think it's judged, but I don't really care so much about the judgment because at the end of the day, it's how you feel and what makes you happy at the end of the day. Right. I guess the reason I mentioned stigma is people don't openly talk about it. If it's there, it's there. I didn't talk about it till recently with my friends and then they all opened up like, wow, interesting. Now that I opened up, now look at all of you had the same exact feelings, right? It's just that I went ahead and tried it and it was interesting. They wanted to know what it was about. So it was very interesting, empowering. And we all talked about how we need to be more open and real about what's going on and not just feel like it's a stigma. Anyway, fascinating. And again, I go back into when women get older or in general, as we get older, we just get more open and we don't care so much about the social restraints. [00:06:39] Speaker B: Well, I think women put far too much pressure on themselves, worrying tremendously about what other people think and what people are going to judge them for. I actually very much dislike the word judge because it doesn't. [00:06:53] Speaker A: I agree. [00:06:54] Speaker B: Well, first of all, because there's no getting around it. Everyone's got a judgment about everything, whether we like it or not. Every single thing that we like or don't like that we choose to put our attention on or withdraw it from, is because we have a judgment, or an opinion or feeling about it. Or if we're in a store and someone walks in front of us and cuts us off or takes our place in line, there's an instant judgment that comes about. Everyone has a judgment process, and no one is without judgment, and no one has no judgment. And yet everyone is running around saying, don't judge, don't judge. I feel so judged. I feel so judged. And it's just this silly mental construct. There's no way around it, and there's no way to stop judging. No one alive on the planet today has an option to effectively stop desires from coming forth out of them. You can't stop having preferences, even if it's a preference to not have preferences, even if it's a preference to meditate under a rock all day, or to sit quietly. You want to have a good meditation, you want to have a peaceful experience, or you have a desire to grow and expand, or a desire to not have any desires. But you can't not have desires. And you can't not have feelings about your desires and other people's feelings as well. You can withdraw your attention from them, but you can't not judge. So to some degree, I do think it's total bullshit when someone says, I come from a place of nonjudgment because you have to have an opinion about it one way or another if you care about the subject. So, for example, I couldn't care less about football. So if someone asked me my opinion on a sports team, if I thought they were great, if I thought they were horrible, if I thought they should change the color of their jersey, or if they should play in a certain stadium, or if I agreed with them that such and such was a terrible player, I can actually say I have no judgment because I have no opinion on it, because I have no care about it. And further to that, I've got no knowledge about it, to even make an accurate assessment or have an opinion or judgment about it. But once a subject is active in your field and the way you feel about things, you have to have an opinion about it. And a preference is another way to say a judgment. I like this. I don't like that. If I say I don't like something, it can also be totally unappealing to me, disgusting, unappetizing. And if I do like it, I can say I love it. All of these are judgments about a specific subject or thing or person or item. I think the only choice is, well, to continue to be your authentic self as much as you can. And this is where I feel like I differ from the two philosophies. Some people want conformity. Other people want to be a free spirit, a free bird, free to express themselves in whatever way they want. But you can't do that truly in society. You could do it in certain places, even in San Diego. Right. You go to certain areas and go to certain clubs and certain bars. But we can't do whatever we want publicly because there is a general feeling of what's publicly acceptable and what our own upbringing allows us to accept or not. And for some of these things, there are rules and laws. And there's other things that aren't necessarily illegal to do but are inappropriate. Such as walking through a downtown area with your shirt off. Especially in a laid back place like Los Angeles. Not illegal to do. But likely very few people are going to speak to you or associate with you if you're walking around that way. And what happens when someone sees something that veers outside of a social norm is there is judgment. What is this person doing? Why is he dressed like that or not dressed like that? So you might call that judgment. And we kind of have to act within the parameters of that. Unless we want to be an outcast or potentially even. Some people get hurt or some people feel fear around the subject. So it's an interesting line that you have to dance on. However, in the United States, in Los Angeles, New York, San Diego, Florida, these places, all the tips of the US, and I'm sure many other places as well, I think expressing yourself or expressing your sexuality is okay, whether it makes people uncomfortable or not, whether they judge you or not. [00:10:57] Speaker A: I totally agree. It's definitely opening up more. I like to see that. [00:11:01] Speaker B: Well, speaking of opening up more, let's get back to double penetration. [00:11:05] Speaker A: I've not tried it with two men. [00:11:07] Speaker B: Is that something that you're curious about? [00:11:09] Speaker A: Yes. [00:11:10] Speaker B: Do you think it would fit? [00:11:11] Speaker A: That's the trick. I don't know. I think it has to do with how comfortable the two men. Because they may touch each other. [00:11:18] Speaker B: Yeah, it's like. It's very much touching there. [00:11:21] Speaker A: Yeah. But I also hear the guy really like the guys like it. The double penetration. [00:11:27] Speaker B: To receive it? No, to give it. [00:11:29] Speaker A: Yeah. Because the other cock, it feels good against it. I just heard that. I don't know if that. Wait, have you tried that? [00:11:39] Speaker B: No, but are you talking about double penetration in the same exact location. [00:11:43] Speaker A: No. [00:11:44] Speaker B: Okay. One in one place, one in the other. [00:11:46] Speaker A: Yes. [00:11:47] Speaker B: So I'm clear now. No, I haven't idea. I haven't done that. But I've done it in conjunction with a toy to heighten her pleasure for me. It seems pleasurable for the woman to receive that. [00:11:59] Speaker A: Oh, okay. [00:12:00] Speaker B: But to actually give that and engage like that, it actually takes more work and more finesse. I have to. [00:12:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:12:06] Speaker B: Maneuver and keep the timing and rhythm and everything. Right, true. When did you know you were first comfortable with anal sex? [00:12:14] Speaker A: Actually, I was with the same couple. [00:12:17] Speaker B: This couple is like your muse. They've really opened you. [00:12:20] Speaker A: They did. I want to say he did, but because when I met vacan, I was very curious when I found out a couple are open to have intimacy with another person and possibly date another person. I was fascinated by the concept a year ago until I learned about jealousy more and the root cause and all that. [00:12:43] Speaker B: And then speak to me about jealousy and the root cause, the mindset. [00:12:49] Speaker A: It's the ownership, it's the ego. It's the ego and ownership you want to process, and that feels good. It's mine. [00:12:55] Speaker B: What you just said is what a lot of people do when they want to. It's like, you gave me the grand topic. It's jealousy or it's ownership or it's ego. Okay. But if someone listening heard that, they don't say, oh, okay. It's just ownership and ego. I guess I just drop it like a ham and cheese sandwich, and it goes away. You have to be able to do something with it or fundamentally understand it in a way that allows you to change. Right. [00:13:23] Speaker A: That's what I'm going through. I feel like, because I'm jealous that this guy that we were dating is already dating somebody else. And I've been trying to understand. Oh, I understood the concept of trying to not get jealous, but in actuality, it's been really hard. [00:13:40] Speaker B: Do you think it's wrong to be jealous? [00:13:42] Speaker A: It hurts you only. So I want to say it's wrong because I know how much hurt it can bring you as a human being. Nothing else. It just hurts you. And for that reason, it's evil for the soul. [00:13:54] Speaker B: We have to start from the top. So assuming that you believe that there's a right and a wrong, then we can go down this kind of rabbit hole of what's right and what's wrong. However, there's the other idea that there's nothing right or wrong. There's what we believe in. There's morality. Most things we agree upon as right or wrong, which we tend to use as extremes, like, course, killing people. But somehow we don't exercise that with animals, unless it's animals that we love, but not, apparently, not cows and pigs and so forth. So if you believe that there's such thing as wrong and right, then what you said was an interesting point. You said, it only hurts yourself. So being jealous doesn't hurt. Well, it can destroy a relationship, jealousy, of course, but you're ultimately just hurting yourself by having and feeling it. It almost feels like a power that you have no control over. [00:14:40] Speaker A: Absolutely. And that's devastating to know you can control, but you can't because it has to do with the heart. And then your logic. And it's all mixed together. Yeah, it's difficult. [00:14:51] Speaker B: It's hard. However, I'm not sure that it's not unnatural. I think it is natural. I think for most people, a response of jealousy is natural. And I think even to those listening who are like, oh, I'm not a jealous person. I think if your wife or your husband or boyfriend or girlfriend, you stood right there while they were kissing or having sex with someone else and really, really enjoying it and giving them the same look that she or he gives you when they're about to come, or something very intimate, I mean, just take the most extreme but certainly possible example. I don't think many people in the world, I think the percentage is minuscule, are going to stand there and be like, oh, I just love seeing you there, getting fucked by someone else. Your happiness is my happiness. If this pleases you, it also pleases me. And I hear people purport to say that so much. For the most part, I personally don't buy into it. I believe there's probably a very small number of people who have somehow convinced themselves or are wired a little bit differently or who have somehow managed. And I think maybe it's a long path to get there. But I don't think anyone is celebrating or completely mentally happy on the inside, emotionally, spiritually, et cetera, et cetera, when their partner, who they are in love with, is engaging intimately with someone else. [00:16:13] Speaker A: Again, I go back into the mindset. However, you can control your mind, because if it hurts you. Right. Okay, I want to go back to the other topic. Absolutely agree. Jealousy is good. [00:16:23] Speaker B: If it's good or unavoidable or good. [00:16:26] Speaker A: Or doesn't hurt you, you have to make sure it's controlled. And again, I want to go back into the fact that we don't just all belong to one another. I want to really get that. I really, truly believe we all. [00:16:38] Speaker B: Well, that's true. [00:16:39] Speaker A: So that's. Again, jealousy comes into. Jealousy is equal to. Ownership comes from ownership. So I go back into. There are definitely people that don't have the jealousy and the possession. They're at a higher level of their mindset that they can still have a relationship and have enjoy all this side. [00:16:57] Speaker B: Or I sometimes wonder if they just don't care deeply enough or love deeply enough. Ownership is a strong word. It's like possession. The times that I've felt jealous, I don't want to own or possess or control anything that she does, except not wanting her to have incredible sex with other people. [00:17:17] Speaker A: And so there's that true love, is it right? Because if it's true love, you let the person be. So again, well, absolutely. [00:17:22] Speaker B: I think it can be true love. I have definitely heard that perspective before, many times, but I just don't agree with it. I don't think that the person who I am truly in love with is the one who I don't have care about or attachment towards how they intimately interact with someone else now, in terms of supporting them doing something that I'm not interested in, such as if they're into photography and I'm not, or I'm an acrobat and they have no desire, we can accept each other in that way very hard. [00:17:51] Speaker A: And I come to the conclusion that true love is letting the person do what they want because it makes them happy. [00:17:57] Speaker B: Yeah, sure. This is the pop culture spiritual belief we have around relationships today. Let her go. And if she doesn't come back, it was never meant to be. And if she does, and of course, you don't own anyone and you can't possess someone and they're never yours to begin with. And you arrive in this world without anyone and you leave it without anyone experience for you. [00:18:15] Speaker A: You met the person because they brought certain things to you, or you brought certain things to them, right? Yeah. [00:18:21] Speaker B: I don't think it's a utopian way to see it. I think that part of loving someone is not wanting them or feeling great about them running around and having sex with whoever they want to spend time with or go on vacations with. [00:18:38] Speaker A: Connection, then. Yeah, if you have the connection now. [00:18:41] Speaker B: I could absolutely buy into not wanting to control your partner, not asking every little detail about where they're going, what they're doing, who they're with, and all of these things that, yes, are considered controlling and domineering and inappropriate when you're trying to have a close, connected relationship with someone when it comes to one specific thing, specifically who the person you are in relationship with is also having sex with. I don't think you can disqualify a relationship as not being true love because you don't want your partner to sleep with someone else. I don't think you can say, oh, this is not real love. This is possession, this is my ego. This is what have you. Now those things might come into play with it. You can call it whatever you like and define it how you want. But few and far between are the people who can be in love with their partner and be completely happy for them to do whatever makes them happy, including having sex with other people, having threesomes or anal sex with other people, being intimate or looking in someone's eyes in that loving way with other people. I think all of that part and parcel of caring so deeply for someone is not wanting them to also share that connection with other people. Now, in saying this, I hear all of the ultra spiritual bells in my head going off and saying, but that is ownership and that is dominance. And how can you assert your will or your desire onto what someone else wants in their life? And I say, well, ultimately that comes down to not choosing someone who wants opposing things. You don't choose who you fall in love with. But if you are trying to have a relationship with someone who wants to be open and you don't at all want it, you're just in for a world of hurt. A world of hurt, because there's going to be a fundamental incompatibility there. However, I know I speak from a very specific standpoint, and that there are people who are in open and polyamorous relationships, and undefined relationships, who feel very differently about the subject, and who purportedly deeply enjoy seeing their partner have a wonderful time, whether it's picking daisies and apples and wild blueberries, or, to use a friend of mine's preferred jargon, being pounded and railed by some perfect stranger while they're sitting right there watching. And I believe that these partnerships within them, they've concluded that this is true love. This is an unconditional love without condition, because it's not conditional upon them being monogamous or faithful to only you. I don't share that opinion, because to me, once someone I love has had sex with someone else, the feeling in me changes. Not that I don't love them anymore, but it feels, depending on how deeply I love them, it feels like something is lost. It feels like betrayal. It feels like some sacred bond or connection that we've had is gone. [00:21:35] Speaker A: I agree with you. I'm with you with that. [00:21:38] Speaker B: And I could go on and on, and at the same time, when I'm single, somehow this rule doesn't apply. If we haven't decided that, for lack of a better phrase, you're mine, I'm your. These are the words we tend to use. In fact, it's been said to me in the past, I'm yours, I belong to you. This fill in the body part here belongs to you. This is almost a devotional expression, whether it's healthy or not. [00:22:05] Speaker A: No, it's true. Yeah, that's a big subject. [00:22:08] Speaker B: It's huge. [00:22:08] Speaker A: Everybody deals with it differently. [00:22:10] Speaker B: Yeah. I'm glad. [00:22:11] Speaker A: I don't believe in Polly, in a way, for myself, I don't necessarily. I think you have to be at a higher level of understanding to be comfortable with being Polly. And it's not easy. Even I've seen the couple that they still suffer when they meet the person that they may connect with more. That's right. It happens. [00:22:28] Speaker B: Yeah. And I don't necessarily think it's a higher level of understanding, and I know I'm saying a lot of strong language here. It's a different level of understanding. Or you could just be born with a different mentality. And I think some people are born without the jealousy chip or without the jealousy trigger inside of them. I think you could read all the books you want on the subject, but it's always going to be a practice. [00:22:49] Speaker A: Because you're opening yourself up. But again, if you don't, then what? If you have the curiosity, what if I did? I lost opportunities. Which what you sometimes hear, oh, I lost this opportunity because I gave myself to you. [00:23:04] Speaker B: What happened? [00:23:05] Speaker A: Or whatever, I don't know. Relationship is hard. [00:23:10] Speaker B: I think it's all good when you're the king of the castle or the queen of the castle. In other words, you have someone who's devoted to you, you have multiple partners, and no one else is seeing anyone else who wouldn't feel at the top until you get hurt, until you hurt someone else. But once you lose that, once your rank takes a hit, and maybe your primary girl or your wife or whatever suddenly isn't interested in you anymore, maybe he doesn't feel the in love feeling or the spark anymore, or she starts feeling that towards someone else. I really find it hard to believe that someone, in the instant that it happens, or even the next day or two or three is going to say, well, say La Vie. This is what they want. This is what's best for them. It was good while it lasted. I love you and I want what's best for you. So if this is what you want, goodbye. Without feeling some sort of angst or separation or pain or stab or, I mean, ego or not. It hurts. It hurts. And I really want to make this point stick because people, hypothetically, talk about what they would do if they broke up with someone. How they would feel or react if someone broke up with them. No one really knows how they'd behave until they get hit with it. And especially if you have the rug pulled out from underneath you, that means it comes as a total surprise or shock, or you had no idea it was coming. You're going along perfectly in your relationship. Everything seems peachy and fine and wonderful, and then, lo and behold, one partner says, oh, I can't do this anymore, or I'm leaving, or I'm done, or let's get a divorce, or I never want to have sex with you again, or I never want to see you again. Or I know we just had sex like every day for the last ten days in a row, and it's been amazing, but now we should never talk again. Or worse yet, they leave or move out and don't let you know. You come home and the house is empty, or they've met someone else, or you find out that they've met someone else by finding things in pockets or things that get left out by accident. That feeling when a partner behaves like a light switch. One moment they're on and in an instant they're completely shut off. Not responding to you, not talking to you lovingly, not sending you sweet messages, nothing. It's all gone. That will leave you, for lack of a better phrase, asked out. Actually, I could think of plenty of better phrases. Fucked up, desolate, despairing, fearful, freaking out, pissed off, hurt, confused. And it will really mess with your ability to trust people in the future. And I could say both from other people's experiences and my own, you won't be able to focus. You won't be able to think. You won't be able to do life in any valuable capacity because your brain will be so fried from trauma, betrayal, mistrust, thinking that everything was one way in your reality and it never was or wasn't anymore. And all the pieces that you have to pick up from that are unfathomably painful. So when people make light about being totally fine when someone moves on or perfectly okay if they break up or not, to me, that's absolutely not unconditional love. Either you're not really emotionally invested with that person or you're just speaking out of your ass frankly. [00:26:26] Speaker A: But some people do that. It hurts, but they can easily go and see others because that's the way to get over it. [00:26:34] Speaker B: I don't think it helps you get over someone. I think it could distract you for an hour and then for many people, emotionally leave them feeling worse than before they did it. [00:26:44] Speaker A: That's what happened to him. He immediately met somebody else. [00:26:48] Speaker B: Sure. I mean, no doubt people do it, But I don't think that's the path to healing. I think I'm going to have to give another monologue here as well. Nothing hurts more than seeing someone who you love. [00:27:00] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:27:00] Speaker B: Go be with someone else immediately. [00:27:02] Speaker A: Weeks? [00:27:03] Speaker B: Yeah, weeks, days, hours. That either makes me question someone's ability to maintain presence. In other words, to me, that's no different than someone getting fucked up, stoned, high, blitzed out of their mind, or massively drunk. It's people who I don't think can really evaluate what they're doing and not just go behave blindly and unconsciously. Or it makes me question the sincerity of love. [00:27:26] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:27:27] Speaker B: Okay, that's the hard. At the same time, I'm aware of our ability as men to also just go out and have sex with another woman without being emotionally invested. And it doesn't have to be from a place of hatred or anger or disgust or hurt. It can just be like a release. Sure. A release or connection, or someone to someone to hold you, touch you, care about, you, enjoy being in your presence. Even if you don't have sex, it's within many of us to go be sexual with someone else. And yet it's excruciating to the other person. That's actually why I don't like immediately going to have sex with someone new. Because I understand that while it might be temporary fulfillment for me or some kind of pathetic validation that, yes, we are still desirable, that it's so much more painful for someone else. But you can't really move on from someone by going out and fucking other people. [00:28:21] Speaker A: Both people believe that that's true. I think that's true as well. I really think that's one way to kill a hurt interest. [00:28:26] Speaker B: Wait, say that again. I'm not saying to get over someone. That's what you should do or that helps. [00:28:31] Speaker A: No, but you're saying that does happen a lot. [00:28:34] Speaker B: Absolutely, it happens a lot. [00:28:35] Speaker A: I'm saying that's a way for some people to get over somebody. [00:28:39] Speaker B: Let's separate it. I wouldn't say to get over someone. I would say because they're single, because they're attractive, because they're in the mood, because they want to feel validated, because they want to feel pretty, because they want to feel desired, like. There's a number of reasons why. I think for many women, it often comes down to attention, validation, and reassurance that they are desirable. Pretty lovable, et cetera. Probably for men, too. But fundamentally, you take a woman who's been in a marriage for 15 or 20 years and hasn't had sex with her husband except once a year. And when many women define themselves through one of the ways, how they look and how attractive they are and how desirable they are, it becomes very, very difficult to feel pretty when your life partner isn't desiring you. So then she gets out of the marriage, and it's the first time she gets to be free. And there's like, screw it, I'm going to. Right. [00:29:29] Speaker A: Yeah, it's true. [00:29:30] Speaker B: There you have it happened to you as well. Usually people on the recipient end of women, for instance, just getting out of a marriage. So a guy who's lucky enough to meet someone who's been in a marriage for 20 years, they've had sex once a year. They are incredibly fortunate because they're going to be with someone who's super ready to be opened and released and enjoyed and devoured and feel appreciated. [00:29:55] Speaker A: You want to explore your body. It's a whole nother subject, right? [00:29:59] Speaker B: So the question becomes, if we're married and we break up, both of us are capable of going to have sex unless we're truly emotionally devastated and on the floor and we're going through a healing process or it's traumatic. We're capable of physically connecting with other people, but neither one of us would like that. We'd be really hurt and devastated by it. But we're both going to likely go do it at some point, whether that's when you're ready. Yeah, right. Whether it's a day, a week, or a month. So then, if that's natural and that is going to happen, why are we so jealous and hurt that it is? If almost everybody does this, and then it comes circles back to what you were talking about, like we're only hurting ourselves by feeling it, but it's something that we feel like we have no choice over expectations. [00:30:41] Speaker A: We said we have no choice of feeling hurt. You mean, I wish you could control your heart with your mind. [00:30:47] Speaker B: Well, that's what I'm saying. Yes, that was really well said. [00:30:50] Speaker A: Okay. [00:30:50] Speaker B: I felt the emotion behind that. Technically speaking, we all have choice, but emotionally speaking, that's not true. [00:30:59] Speaker A: And I'm glad that's not true. I'm glad there is a heart. There are two organs. You're trying to connect two organs in logic, your brain and your heart. And they don't sync up sometimes. And it takes work to sync him up. [00:31:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:31:11] Speaker A: Just like anything else. [00:31:12] Speaker B: It's important to me to be clear. So I just want to say, when I say you don't have choice, what I mean is, when emotion gets the best of us, whether you're a man or a woman, it puts you in a state of mind that you don't have control over in the moment. If you've ever had a fit of anxiety, depression, hurt, heartbreak, of course, in those moments, the world feels like it's coming to an end. You can't think straight, you can't function properly. And anyone, a logical person who you can talk to or reach out to. [00:31:47] Speaker A: They will tell you, time will heal. [00:31:49] Speaker B: Yeah, time will heal. And, oh, you just have to. You're choosing to be sad and depressed like this right now. It's your choice. You can focus on the sunshine and focus on this and change your mindset. Right. [00:32:00] Speaker A: Do all this Tony Robbins stuff. It helps. I agree. It does help. [00:32:04] Speaker B: It does because it's a technique, right. But generally not in the immediate moment of and weeks following trauma, traumatic situation. Again, anxiety, jealousy. Jealousy. Something I face, for example, with not lovers, but just friends who are girls. I have several female friends who have anxiety and sometimes an attack will happen. They'll just get hit with an anxiety attack or overwhelm of emotion. A few of these girls, they're not very touchy feely. So my inclination is to want to give them a hug, to console them. [00:32:36] Speaker A: Of course, that helps a lot, right? [00:32:38] Speaker B: No, they don't want any of that. They don't want to be touched. They don't want to be bothered. And you can't really say anything to soothe in those moments. I'll never be a ridiculous cheerleader saying, it's fine, it's fine. Just take some breaths. Everything's going to be okay. Because in those moments, it feels like your world feels like it's falling apart. Yeah. So how do you help someone who's having an attack? Sometimes to me, it seems like you just have to let it pass. You have to give space, just be there or even not there. And you have to know what techniques work best for you to start to raise your vibration and start to ease out of it. Maybe it's a walk, maybe it's being by yourself. [00:33:16] Speaker A: Yoga crying helps a lot. [00:33:18] Speaker B: Absolutely. That's a great one. And that's what I'm saying, is when you're crying, you're not happy, you're emoting and you're getting it out. You're not choosing. It's like this is coming up. Yeah. [00:33:29] Speaker A: Again. And one other thing that I'm learning as a technique for me in general, is just to learn to be in a present moment. It's a buzword. Everybody is be in a present moment. But truly, it's a technique to use as well. [00:33:42] Speaker B: Absolutely. And without a doubt. What techniques do you have, though, to stay and be in the present moment when you're in pain, breathe and just. [00:33:50] Speaker A: Focus on your breathing, and then just don't think about the future. If you can catch yourself having the anxiety of worrying about the future, whatever that is. Is it getting another job? Is it, oh, am I going to be late to work or whatever it is, all the anxiety we create in our mindset, and it's a very interesting subject. And I was listening to Tony Robbins today, actually, a friend of mine sent this. The mindset and the things we all know, we read. And when you're ready to. Again, just going back into when everything's foggy and gloomy, nothing can help you. I think only you have to give yourself time and let it pass. Like you said, try to occupy yourself with positiveness. Is it yoga? Your meditation, whatever. And then when you get stronger, you have to use those techniques and then make sure this, for me at least, what I'm going to do is make sure these techniques stay with me so I don't allow an exterior event to make me so sad for weeks and month and a half. That's too much of angst and crying. It's a waste of the energy. [00:34:53] Speaker B: I was talking to a girlfriend the other day, and she was in a relationship for four years, and they broke up because of a cheating thing. And she did not cheat on him. But it wasn't. I don't even think it was sex. I believe it was a kiss. And in 24 hours, apparently, she was over it, and I wanted to really question her about that. I was like, so you didn't feel like your world was coming to an end for, like, six weeks or six months? [00:35:21] Speaker A: It was just a kiss. Maybe that's why. [00:35:22] Speaker B: What have you. [00:35:23] Speaker A: Maybe it was more like a kiss would last longer. [00:35:26] Speaker B: I want to ask her more about it, but you're right. Like, the kiss seems a little more harmless. But if you're not going to be together with someone you've been with for four years of your life, to me, it seems like there would be a little more exasperation, hurt, depression, sadness. I understand we're not all the same, but for goodness sake, four years of your life in love with someone, and it's all coming to an end. Come on. [00:35:48] Speaker A: I agree. Yeah. Did they break up? [00:35:50] Speaker B: Yeah. They're not together. They're not together because a kiss is. [00:35:54] Speaker A: A sign that you're not happy. If you're in a relationship that you have connection and you talk, there is no reason to. [00:35:59] Speaker B: Well, it's all the things that get you there, too. What was the flirtation that led up to it? The trading of numbers? Were there sexy texts? Had they spent time in each other's presence but hadn't done anything yet? Have they been thinking about each other nonstop? Interestingly, along the lines of jealousy, you can look at the person who is jealous, and here's our loaded word. Judge them all you want. It's a choice. They shouldn't be this way. Why are they in their ego? However, and this is my favorite thing, to remind people with closeness. What about the behavior of the person who's causing jealousy? I've seen women who do absolutely nothing, and the guy is a control freak, like a hawk. He wants to know where she is, call her on her phone all the time checking in. It's like out of control. [00:36:45] Speaker A: Too much the control. [00:36:47] Speaker B: Right. That's control. That's ego to me. Where are you? What are you doing? So there's that now. Then we'll now factor in. What about the people who are provoking and creating and giving someone reason to feel jealous in the first place? If you're promiscuous, flirtatious, very open. If tons of men are attracted to you and talking to you and you're just an open minded being and you love talking or you love getting affection and hugs, or you just can't get enough of attention, or you can't help but engage with anyone who starts talking to you and giving them deep amounts of eye contact, you could be doing all these things that are driving a man or men through the roof with jealousy. And rightly so. [00:37:31] Speaker A: That's exactly kind of what happened with us, too, because I am very open. I love to talk to people. Yeah, I do talk about my work, and I like this guy. And that guy can see that whether. [00:37:43] Speaker B: You'Re a man or a woman. Just picture if you're attracted to the opposite sex or whoever you're attracted to. Picture them sitting on a sofa at a dinner party at a social gathering with lots of important and beautiful and sexually attractive people. And your partner, who you love, is opening their big, juicy mouth to laugh widely. Their teeth are showing. Reaching over, she's touching the knee of someone else. She's holding eye contact X few extra seconds. How hilarious is this guy who she's talking to? Then the attractive waiter comes by and she stops everything to look him right in the eyes and say, thank you. This is so delicious. It looks like she's going to fuck the entire room. Do you, as your partner, just sit there and say, oh, there's my girl having such a good time. I'm so happy about this. Look at the way she works and owns and seduces the room. Now here's the seedy, dangerous, disgusting part. Many people listening to this will say, oh, you just have to be confident enough. You have to be a confident enough man or woman to handle a girl like that. And I think that is absolute bullshit as well. You have to know the intention. If the intention behind all of the attention and affection is not being enough as a person, so you need all this sexual validation and attention from men or women to make you feel better. I don't believe that the other partner needs to be brought through hell to handle a woman like that. Or if she calls it just her natural bubbly personality and it's who she is and she can't shut down because that's her creative process and anything else feels controlling. And how dare you try to interfere with her just being friendly and open. It's these terms, right? But everyone else knows because all these guys are asking for her number and inviting her to their hotel room and trying to figure out how to spend time with her, et cetera, et cetera. You're also being duped, and it's absolutely not a question of being confident. I think it takes confidence to be with a beautiful or physically stunning person who gets attention and hit on all the time from people, no matter how their energy is on the outside. But I think it's a mistake to say it's confidence that's required to handle someone who's endlessly needing validation and attention from the opposite sex or same sex. If you're in open relationship and she can fuck everyone in the room and it's all okay, then great, and do your thing. But if you have a commitment of monogamy or it's just you. But there's that type of exploring. To me, that's where cheating starts. Because especially with men, every single man is always going to get the impression when a woman puts all of her attention on him, when she gives that eye contact, when she's touching his shoulder or knee or chest, when she's laughing at everything he says, when she's standing in close proximity, that she wants to sleep with him. And on top of that, he's going to think that if you're with each other and he's in the room with you, well, then he's going to think, I guess you must not love each other that much. Or why would this be happening if he's here and she's really devoted to him? I mean, that's the age old question from Mr. Alpha Male in the line. Oh, you know, I see your boyfriend isn't here. Where is he? He's not here with you now, so he must not care about you and love you. Such bullshit. But what remains is it takes two. She's giving sexual signals. And if those signals weren't there, this man wouldn't feel strong sexual attraction. So if you're doing all this stuff and you think that you're just, oh, what do you call it, having fun, being your authentic self, just expressing your divine feminine energy while you're attracting something very, very different. I agree with that. Yeah. You're sending out a different signal. [00:41:27] Speaker A: I totally agree with that. [00:41:28] Speaker B: Yeah. And so it comes down to, you have to look at what the person is doing who is saying, my husband or my wife is so jealous. The person who's saying that, what actions are they taking to make them think so? Because, yes, there are jealous people in the world, and there are also very provoking people in the world. Are boobs always popping out and being adjusted? And in low cut shirts, no matter where they're going, they can't help but flick their hair. And the way they grab their phone and bat their eyebrows and the way they stand with their hip cocked out. Does she make Instagram Stories where she holds the phone in front of her face and her chest and her ass and doesn't say anything but plays music in the background while she makes kissy faces? Is the guy always looking in the eyes of other women or flirting with them or smiling at them or talking to every single waitress or every person who goes by? Does he have a wandering eye when women touch him in public? Does he respond to it and touch them back? There's so many things. Of course, it's not just about other women. [00:42:26] Speaker A: And again, I want to say that couples that they love when their man flirts or the woman flirts because in their mind they get excited in the public because they know at the end she's coming or he's coming home with me. [00:42:39] Speaker B: I've heard that, too. [00:42:40] Speaker A: I've seen it. Even they don't mind it because that's what you want to get in front of me. That's the pleasure you're getting. Then just go right ahead. [00:42:48] Speaker B: Gosh. Having this talk is, of course, clarifying a lot of my beliefs around it as well. I don't doubt that happens. I do believe that that happens. The name for it in my book is called Cuckolding. Now, if you can really own that mindset, if you don't feel uncomfortable while you're holding the hand of someone you love. And she, for example, is making sexual, flirtatious overtures and gestures to another man who inevitably is thinking that you're a schmuck if you see her doing that and giving off those signals, but it's somehow you've wired in your head that it gives you pleasure to see her happy because she's coming home with you tonight or this month. I'm very impressed. Congratulations. [00:43:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Doesn't work for everyone. [00:43:34] Speaker B: Yeah. In my mind, I would be feeling, yeah, she's coming home with me tonight. But then what? And how do you know she's not closing her eyes and fantasizing about that experience when she's with you? It's one thing if you're in another country and you're walking down. I don't know, there's all these different rules, stipulAtions. But if you're in a restaurant, in a bar and you frequent it regularly and there's chemistry with the waiter or the waitress or what have you, you know darn well most women are going to be like, I never want my man coming back to this bar again as long as this woman works here. It's like that protectiveness is strong. I know it must be sounding terribly traditional. And it's so funny because I don't identify as a traditional person at all. I think most people, if we're holding hands and we're affectionate, and then I just look over and really give eyes to another woman and she's friendly, it's like disrespectful. Right. How much longer you want to stay on the date with me? Are you going to call me again? If it's a first date, if you see that behavior right away, yes. [00:44:29] Speaker A: Imagine what happens later. Yeah. [00:44:30] Speaker B: I try to imagine in the truly authentic polyamory world. If someone's going on a first date and they haven't yet discussed what they're like and what their personalities are like, and they see that, does the guy or girl just sit back and say, all right, all right, this is going to be good. You want some attention to be on yourself or to know which kind of attention. [00:44:50] Speaker A: That's a whole nother topic. [00:44:51] Speaker B: It absolutely is. Which comes down to that. I need to feel special feeling that everyone has. [00:44:56] Speaker A: I truly believe all human beings need to have attention. [00:44:59] Speaker B: Yes. [00:45:00] Speaker A: Whatever attention it is, is it positive? Woman, they get their boobs, job done. That to them, that's attention. They get all these things. They think that's attention. But men need attention as well, same as women. Sure, we all, they just hide it behind their ego. Woman, show it. We get happy with little flowers or something small, where men, they just want to be. Feel like they're needed or. Yeah, it's just. [00:45:22] Speaker B: What is getting attention for men? What is it? [00:45:25] Speaker A: I think possession is one that I really truly believe. Men, they get to certain they need to have women. And I believe women do not need men. I really believe. [00:45:35] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:45:36] Speaker A: Meaning you can be on your own as a woman. Because we have a whole community behind us. We know how to take care of a lot of women, I should say. We talk to each other. Men, they don't tend to know how to do that if they are not in touch with their feelings. They do not know how to communicate how to talk about their feelings. [00:45:55] Speaker B: Are you saying that if both species isolated themselves, that women would have the community of other women to spend time with? Because you all understand each other and talk to each other, and men are more isolating and don't know how to bond and interact with just men. Yeah, I can see that. [00:46:10] Speaker A: It's the ego again, absolutely. They don't know because a lot of them, when they lose a relationship, they really lose everything because they lost their friends. They lost a lot. Unless they were the social butterfly guy. Right. That does hunting this weekend, fishing the next weekend, and you have a bunch of buddies. But regardless, I truly still go back into men. They need to have a woman to be happy. You might be different, but. [00:46:35] Speaker B: Well, listen, I believe that anyone can be independently happy, autonomous and perfectly happy by themselves. And I also believe in the idea that one shouldn't need another person to be totally fulfilled. But I mean, from my perspective, I think self help seminars are filled to the brim with, well, people, not just women, but people looking for a partner or wanting a mate or not understanding why they haven't found someone yet or they haven't attracted their one. And further to that, what does most gossip, chatter, chitchat and conversations amongst women deal with? Relationships. Relationships, relationships. This guy they're seeing this guy they're sleeping with this guy, they're hoping it will become more with this guy who they are waiting to see what he does next. Why hasn't he called her? Why hasn't he responded to her text? What should she do next? This guy. They're hoping it works out with this guy they just met. This guy, this guy, this guy, this guy. On top of that, you've got biological clocks that are Ticking. Women who just want to have a baby with someone who will give them their baby, women who are feeling the need to be married or have a child, et cetera, et cetera. And then what about all the women who feel upset, depressed or anxious because they haven't found their partner or their soulmate or their one yet, or they've been single for years and they're feeling hopeless about it? And I know there are people out there who are the exception, but I think for the most part, everyone is kind of looking for their mate or match. Or matches, for sure. [00:47:59] Speaker A: Yeah. So I think that's just part of the biology of women wanting to have a child so that nurturing comes in. Maybe because I'm older, I think a little different now. Absolutely agree. Women, when they're younger, they want to have a man. I think they get to a point where they can be without it and be happy. [00:48:16] Speaker B: What is your upbringing, your Middle Eastern background? [00:48:19] Speaker A: Persian. [00:48:19] Speaker B: Persian. [00:48:20] Speaker A: And grew up in a very open family. We're not religious. [00:48:23] Speaker B: Tell us a little bit about how different it is when it comes to open displays of affection or intimacy in public or anywhere, for that matter. [00:48:32] Speaker A: We couldn't show your affection in public for sure because of how the government rules. Very touchy at home. People are very touchy and huggy and they are very supportive in the families. [00:48:43] Speaker B: What would be considered too much affection for the government standards. [00:48:47] Speaker A: So you cannot be a boyfriend and girlfriend and touch each other. You have to be married. That's the number one. You have to have a marriage to be able to be in public. You cannot just flirt easily. You cannot kiss in public. So everybody does all that behind closed doors. [00:49:01] Speaker B: Is it illegal? [00:49:02] Speaker A: It's not accepted. Maybe it is illegal. I cannot say it's really illegal. It's just not accepted. [00:49:08] Speaker B: Right. You're from Iran, right? [00:49:10] Speaker A: Yes. [00:49:10] Speaker B: What's the maximum amount of affection someone can show in public in Iran, in. [00:49:15] Speaker A: Public right now, you can hold each other's hands. I have not been there in many years, but I believe if you're married, you can hold each Other's hands. [00:49:25] Speaker B: If you're married, kissing of any kind in public, kissing on the lips. [00:49:29] Speaker A: Like you don't see that happening. [00:49:32] Speaker B: Okay. Kissing on the cheeks. [00:49:34] Speaker A: Yeah, that's very common. [00:49:35] Speaker B: And even if you're husband, wife, even. [00:49:38] Speaker A: Family members, friends, very common, especially in. [00:49:41] Speaker B: Young generation, kissing once on each side. So if you move your mouth over two inches to the lips, this becomes. [00:49:47] Speaker A: Because that's intimacy versus pension. [00:49:49] Speaker B: Right? Hand on the low back. [00:49:52] Speaker A: It's not very common to, in general, walk together holding hands. Again, this is 15 years old. If somebody out there listening to this. [00:50:00] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Things could have changed or may have changed already. [00:50:03] Speaker A: It's just old knowledge. [00:50:04] Speaker B: So obviously no hand on the butt. That'd be intimate. How about if you're sitting down on a sofa in a bar or lounge? No bars, of course, because there's alcohol. [00:50:14] Speaker A: Restaurant. In a restaurant, you probably can if it's under the table. And if it's not super obvious right. [00:50:19] Speaker B: Now, I was going to say if it is obvious, can you have your hand on your girl's leg or thigh. [00:50:25] Speaker A: Which is not showing because it's in public, so it's all covered. [00:50:28] Speaker B: Right. [00:50:29] Speaker A: But yes, it's through the clothes. [00:50:31] Speaker B: Right. Can you flirt in public with your eyes and smiles? [00:50:36] Speaker A: That happens a lot. That's what you do. [00:50:38] Speaker B: That's what you do. Give the eye nice. Any other interesting surprises or things that you wouldn't think? [00:50:45] Speaker A: I've been so away from it. So I just know that when girls are younger and they don't want to lose their virginity, they have a lot of anal sex. [00:50:53] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, that little detail. Well, that's pretty major. [00:50:56] Speaker A: And whatever else they may have, I left the country too early, so I didn't go to that a lot. [00:51:01] Speaker B: Wow. Now, how do you know this very intimate detail? [00:51:04] Speaker A: Well, I was in the country since I was 18. [00:51:08] Speaker B: So girls talk to each other about these things, obviously, yeah. Would you say it's something that only girls talk to other girls about, or does everyone talk about it? For instance, how would a man come. [00:51:20] Speaker A: To very much more open the whole society because of the social medias. So I'm pretty sure they are very much like how it is here where you're open to your guy friends or your ex. Culture is a very expressive culture. So that's probably part of the problem. They're too emotional. [00:51:41] Speaker B: All right. So basically what we've learned here today is that if you meet a Persian girl, she's going to be open to having anal sex, preferably over anything else. [00:51:49] Speaker A: Absolutely wrong. Absolutely wrong. I'm a little bit on the wild side. [00:51:54] Speaker B: What's that? [00:51:54] Speaker A: I'm on the wild side. [00:51:56] Speaker B: Yes. [00:51:56] Speaker A: Free spirited, I call it. [00:51:58] Speaker B: Do you struggle with any traditional family values that you were raised with? Guilt, of course. Yeah, that's what I was going to ask. [00:52:06] Speaker A: I'm working on that. Because guilt is really a mindset. It's a lie. It's in our head. Guilt is huge because it rules religion, too. [00:52:19] Speaker B: And not only is it huge for the person who's experiencing it and devastating, it's also, in most people, some combination of guilt or shame, which, in my opinion, is what leads to extreme exploring. It's like your rubber band gets pulled back. Of what? You can't do this, you can't do that. You can't do any of this. Don't touch, don't look, don't. And then it snaps back. And now it becomes, just for an example, bondage or choking or whipping or threesomes or anal, whatever it is. There's no making any of those right or wrong. But I think there's something to that effect of people feeling shame. [00:52:57] Speaker A: Shame of being real. That's something I've been really working on. [00:53:00] Speaker B: Shame of being real. [00:53:02] Speaker A: Being real can be shameful for some cultures, not even cultures, people who live here and they have this culture. I really, truly believe what you said is so true. I've been dealing with those two words, shame and guilt. [00:53:14] Speaker B: They follow each other and it's terrible. [00:53:17] Speaker A: Because it's just like jealousy. It eats you up. [00:53:19] Speaker B: But the shame and guilt gets instilled in you in a very early age when you're like a kid condition, very young condition. And then it becomes a nightmare to unwrap out and get right. Very good. [00:53:30] Speaker A: I'm working on that. I'm doing a lot better. [00:53:32] Speaker B: Oh, good. [00:53:33] Speaker A: But it takes work. [00:53:35] Speaker B: What is the work? [00:53:36] Speaker A: ChangiNg your mindset of the conditions that you were put in as a child. [00:53:40] Speaker B: I want to dive deeper than that with you, though. I love that you say that because that's right. Changing the mindsets of what you were conditioned to know as a child, which is in your. [00:53:50] Speaker A: Woven in your blood. [00:53:52] Speaker B: Well, that's what I'm saying. You can't just sit down on a chair and say, okay, this is really silly that I believe this stuff. Time to just let go of all the guilt and shame. [00:54:01] Speaker A: Work on it. [00:54:02] Speaker B: Yes, but what is the work? Is it self talk? [00:54:06] Speaker A: Every day I've done a lot of crying. A lot of crying to get rid of the guilt and say it's not my fault. There's a lot of self talk. It's just like anything else. It's a true process. I'm still going through it. I'm getting better, though. I don't cry anymore about the guilt. Guilt is very bad. It's worse than jealousy. [00:54:27] Speaker B: Who do you feel guilty towards? [00:54:30] Speaker A: Do we want to talk about my personal life now? Well, I'm guilty because my ex husband has MS, right? I don't have the guilt about leaving him, but I'm learning and still be there and be a friend. So they're guilty of that. People have guilt of jealousy. I mean, guilt of sleeping with others. And then, yeah, guilt is bad. [00:54:52] Speaker B: I didn't want to raise such a sensitive subject. [00:54:55] Speaker A: That's okay. I'm okay with it now to talk about it. [00:54:58] Speaker B: What I was intending to ask is if you feel guilt towards how you were raised. In other words, when you're being sexual or wild, does the guilt feel like you're doing something wrong as a child, like the little you is doing something wrong, or the girl within you? [00:55:14] Speaker A: When I went online and met people that I barely know, then there was a little bit of guilt, but then quickly I could turn it into, this is what I want. This is a pleasure, not a guilt. So that was not a big deal for me because maybe for somebody who's very brought up religious, that would have a deeper root. I was not brought up religious. Thank God. I can imagine how it could be a deeper root for somebody who's religious. [00:55:41] Speaker B: How were you not brought up religious? [00:55:43] Speaker A: My mom's very free spirited. My gRandparents, my dad was religious, but the family. But he was the black sheep of the family that met my mom. And we were raised very open. [00:55:54] Speaker B: So when you say that being religion. [00:55:56] Speaker A: Is a box, my mom always said religion is a box. So I was raised with that. And the society is completely the opposite of it. So you are kind of almost born in living two lifestyles, which I feel like it created a lot of problem for me because at home you're somebody, then you go into society, which we deal with that here, too. [00:56:13] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. I mean, we're all different at home than we are, but I know more. So, yeah, it's true. [00:56:19] Speaker A: Of course, you have to. Yeah, that can be a whole nother topic by itself. So we're talking about going back into guilt. Right. [00:56:26] Speaker B: Some of the things that you do to alleviate it. [00:56:30] Speaker A: When I went to my therapy session this year, and the very first thing I talked about was guilt, she right away said, guilt is a lie. And I was like, what does that mean? Didn't even understand it for a few weeks. What does that mean? And I asked, and it's just pretty much your mind that creates that to make you feel. It kind of justifies it for you. So again, going back into your mind that it justifies it, that it's guilt. So it's a process. It's a lot of working on your mind. Like you did talk about meditation. I think that has a lot to do with controlling your mindset, because this ruins you. [00:57:04] Speaker B: What did your therapist say about it? [00:57:05] Speaker A: My therapy, the very first word about guilt was guilt is equal. Lies. [00:57:10] Speaker B: Guilt is equal to lie. [00:57:12] Speaker A: Lie. [00:57:13] Speaker B: Guilt is a lie. Lie that you tell yourself. And do you feel like you have an understanding of that? [00:57:21] Speaker A: Because it's in all of us. So is the lie true? Because if truly as a child, you're conditioned to, if you're putting in a box, that's what it is. If you don't do that, then what. [00:57:31] Speaker B: Is your simple definition of guilt? Feeling guilty means I did not live. [00:57:36] Speaker A: Up to the expectation in my mind to do certain thing that feels and looks right. So I went outside of that boundary that I created. Well, that's one aspect. You can go deeper than that. [00:57:49] Speaker B: No, that was well said. That's really nicely said. [00:57:51] Speaker A: Because I truly believe if something as a fire is inside you and you want to explore it, that might equal to guilt. You have to explore it. [00:58:01] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:58:02] Speaker A: Because then it's going to bite you up. Just like you talked about that string. [00:58:05] Speaker B: That's right. So what are you feeling guilty about? [00:58:09] Speaker A: Sometimes you feel guilty about leaving work and not working you enough. Because again, you condition that. [00:58:13] Speaker B: Oh, that's what I'm saying. That's sort of the out of the integrity. But then I was going to say, what is your integrity based on? It's totally based on your expectation, on what you just happen to believe is right and wrong, how many hours you think you should work, how often you should, what your parents told you you should be doing. And if you feel guilt, if you're not working because you have a work ethic that says you should be there 40 or 60, 80 hours a week. [00:58:35] Speaker A: If you've been like, you create them. [00:58:36] Speaker B: All, it's all your own prison or your own boundary. [00:58:38] Speaker A: You are your own prisoner. That is so true. [00:58:41] Speaker B: There's been times where I've felt guilty because I've let myself down because I know I could have done better. And I hate that feeling. So that's where I aspire to be a great person or a good person. And based on my standard of the world and my beliefs about the world, where other people tend to experience guilt, though, is around their sexual desires. If you want to be. [00:59:04] Speaker A: That's one aspect. [00:59:05] Speaker B: Yeah, one aspect. [00:59:07] Speaker A: You eat not healthy. If you're a healthy eater, you may go have in and out or something. You're going to feel guilty about it for a tiny bit for yourself. [00:59:14] Speaker B: Sure. [00:59:15] Speaker A: That's guilt, too. Yeah, it's a guilty pleasure. [00:59:18] Speaker B: I felt guilty for a moment today. I thought the wasabi Aioli sauce was on the side and they, like, drizzled it all over. And I told myself when I ordered I was just going to taste it and see what the sauce tasted like, but I didn't really want to have a heavy aioli sauce with the fries and see fries, for God's sake. So a mild moment of guilt, even though I am fine eating it all have restrictions. [00:59:39] Speaker A: Of course you are. But doesn't that little guilt bothers your mind? If we could just not have that. [00:59:45] Speaker B: Sure. [00:59:45] Speaker A: That's what I'm working on. Well, why am I having this? [00:59:48] Speaker B: Gosh. But at the same time, isn't guilt healthy? Like, to pull? You can't go around killing people, and you can't go around hurting people because you feel guilt. Having guilt around that subject is useful because it keeps you in check with integrity or having some form of morality. [01:00:03] Speaker A: That's well said. You're right again, controlled. Don't let it take over you. Well, I don't know if I want to call it that guilt or maybe the willpower. I don't know. It's still guilt. It's very. Such a negative word. [01:00:16] Speaker B: Guilty. Yeah, it's horrible. Terrible. No one wants to be guilty. I think people are happy for others who take the blame or to pass responsibility for someone else because they don't want to feel any pain or own up to themselves. [01:00:28] Speaker A: And it's just temporary because deep down, when you look in the mirror, you know you did it. So you just wanted to make sure it feels good to not have to face the reality. [01:00:39] Speaker B: Right. [01:00:39] Speaker A: So that's another topic. I really am passionate about facing your reality. I want to teach that to my kids, to what you feel. You just talk about it, don't suppress it. And yeah, it's super important. [01:00:51] Speaker B: It's an interesting comment about facing reality and looking in the mirror because it works for some of us. But I also think plenty of people just don't care. You say, how do you sleep at night with that lie? Or how do you go to bed knowing that you're killing millions of people or millions of animals? They are. They are going to bed and they are sleeping. And spiritual minded people might say, oh, it's getting repressed and pushed down, and the inside must be black. But they're able to continue to exist. And they might continue to exist like that in their mind, not doing anything wrong, because we'll never understand what perspective they have until the time they're ready to die and they have some disease. And then finally it's like, oH, I. [01:01:28] Speaker A: Did all this horrible mental health issues. Right? There's like, all that. Yeah. But if we can all learn to be truthful instead of trying to live in the shame of the guilt, and that would really free a human being soul. [01:01:41] Speaker B: You think radical truth, radical honesty, like 100% about everything. Where were you? What were you doing? Did you smile at that guy? Did he. [01:01:50] Speaker A: I want to say I love soy. I want to go back to. One of the reason my connection with this person that I was dating was really strong is because we were able to talk about everything. Your deep demons, the fact that you just went tonight and met somebody that you felt a little attracted to. All that, especially for somebody who just came out of a marriage. Not so much me. I'm talking about him. He's the one newly out of a marriage. [01:02:14] Speaker B: He would talk to you about all this stuff, or you both would come. [01:02:16] Speaker A: We both would come and talk about maybe, if not every time we see each other, but it was a very passionate person, and he would meet somebody and he would talk. So I felt jealous, and I had to deal with that. [01:02:27] Speaker B: Why did he want to tell you about it? [01:02:28] Speaker A: Part of it. I want to say it's my fault because I got this job that I was surrounded with a lot of young, beautiful people, and I got the attentions that I laugh about, but I got certain attentions. That was very interesting. It was fun for me. I have not gotten those attentions from 25 years old guy. It's true, and it's empowering, but it's temporarily. It just makes you feel good, like you said, and it goes away. But if you talk about it again, if the person is secure and you are in a secure relationship, it shouldn't matter. It's just a conversation that happened. It's the moment of feeling you had during your day, and it's okay to talk about to your partner, unless you really wanted to act up on it. But a lot of time, the attentions we get might satisfy you. That might be all you need. [01:03:15] Speaker B: What is it about someone who's 10, 20, 30 years younger than you when they find you sexually attractive? That is validating. [01:03:25] Speaker A: GoinG back to who you are. That's probably the validation you needed it for yourself. The temporary environment. [01:03:31] Speaker B: Right. But what does it say about you that you're still young, that you still look young, that you're still desirable? [01:03:37] Speaker A: Yes, of course. All the above and more. Your own validation. Yeah, but I still got it. So you're here. Oh, I still got it. The Trader Joe's men were looking at me. I still got it. [01:03:48] Speaker B: The trader Joe's man. [01:03:49] Speaker A: You hear that in my community a lot. [01:03:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:03:52] Speaker A: 40S woman. Yeah. But I wanted to go back into a topic of how for men, it's so easy for men to date somebody who's 20 years younger. [01:04:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:04:01] Speaker A: A woman is totally not. I know. It's a very general. I understand. [01:04:08] Speaker B: Who's judging it? Who cares? [01:04:10] Speaker A: It's just not common. [01:04:11] Speaker B: Oh, it's not common. [01:04:12] Speaker A: Men don't get attracted necessarily. [01:04:14] Speaker B: Right. [01:04:15] Speaker A: Unless there is. Well, the French president is married, the teacher, 20 some years older, obviously happy. [01:04:23] Speaker B: Oh, obviously. [01:04:24] Speaker A: So there's a connection as well. I get it. It's just not common. And I'm very surprised that a lot of men, they believe, and it can last. I have a girlfriend who's made. They believe, oh, I just met this girl who's 30 and I'm 52, and it's just a connection. I laugh because it's very temporarily, in my opinion. [01:04:44] Speaker B: Right. At some point you say, well, what are you guys going to talk about? But maybe who's talking? I mean, especially if you say 19 year old and 40 year old or 30 year old and 50 year old or 40 year old and 65. When does it start to get a little odd? [01:05:01] Speaker A: I don't know. Again, I have a girlfriend that's made with somebody who's older. They have no sex for the past ten years, but they have a certain connection. She didn't have a father figure who's. [01:05:11] Speaker B: Older, the husband's older, and they haven't had sex for ten years. [01:05:14] Speaker A: Yeah, but the connection is there and the security is there. Sometimes you have to see if that person didn't have a father figure or vice versa. That person's fulfilling that position. We're going off topic. [01:05:29] Speaker B: Well, do you want to be able to have an Abercrombie and Fitch 24 year old boyfriend? [01:05:35] Speaker A: No boyfrieNd. No. Do I want to maybe have fun for half an hour? Yeah. [01:05:40] Speaker B: Well, have fun for half an hour, though. [01:05:42] Speaker A: Not 24. That's way too young. What, 34? [01:05:45] Speaker B: Yeah, 34. That's funny. To me, the whole age thing is extremely arbitrary. [01:05:52] Speaker A: What's in your mind? [01:05:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:05:53] Speaker A: Only because I have a son who's 14. [01:05:55] Speaker B: I just think, too, that's like right around the corner for him. [01:05:59] Speaker A: It's just I can't even see it. 24 years old, with anything. Age is a very arbitrary. Yes. [01:06:04] Speaker B: So arbitrary. Oh, that actually reminds me. Same thing with quantity of lovers, when someone will say, do you think I've been with a lot of guys? Or do you think I've been with a lot of girls? And I say, who cares? What is the magic number? If you tell me ten, that might be way too much for a lot of people. It might be like nothing for some people. If you tell me 300, it might be a lot or. [01:06:24] Speaker A: Right. [01:06:25] Speaker B: And who decides where is that number? And what makes the difference? If someone says, well, 14 partners is just way too many, but 13 isn't, and twelve is completely. Okay, so does one number tip the scales again for the rest in your head? Yeah. Numbers in your head, you create them. And this is why I never use the word slut or whore, because in order to give that judgment, you have to be able, I think, to quantify, well, she's with one guy a week or one guy a night or whatever it is, but who knows what it is? You can say a girl or a guy is promiscuous. You can say they have sex. A lot of people. But to condemn, there's just no number for it. So, too, there's no number for what's age appropriate once you're at a legal age. Now, I'm sure it's frowned upon. If you got someone who's in their early 20s with someone who's 65 years old, it's like, well, what is. Well, you know what's going on. Yes. But everywhere in between that. So say 18 to, I don't know, 50 or 48, or there's somewhere in that range where it's like, oh, you don't know what's going on. [01:07:34] Speaker A: You know what, though? I go back. Let's stick to what you said at the beginning. It's a number, so let's not have any judgment. 18 to 50, right? It is weird, but it does happen in some cultures, as, you know, very weird. [01:07:47] Speaker B: Oh, you mean like, why specify 18 to 50? That's right. In my own book of, like, when it might be a little much. It's somewhere between 50 and 60 years old, I think. I don't know. [01:07:59] Speaker A: Like, after five years of whatever time, what is it there? Unless it's a whole nother relationship. It's a father daughter relationship. It's possible, yeah. [01:08:10] Speaker B: In a way, as a relationship that. [01:08:12] Speaker A: Was truly not forced. We're talking about not a forced relationship like in Iran or in a lot of other countries, they do arrange marriages. We're not talking about that. We're talking about Will. Your own will. No judgment. Let's actually not judge 18 and 60 even. Right. Because I like to always have a blanket rule. Sure, because you cannot just judge it, because then you're just judging still. [01:08:35] Speaker B: Well, I don't even care about the stupid word judging. What I'm saying is, where is the line before it becomes something that's, for instance, about money or security? Or is a stunning 18 year old girl having sex with a 75 year old man because she's got a thing for senior men? It's unlikely. It's unlikely. [01:08:55] Speaker A: No, there's something that's lacking in there. [01:08:57] Speaker B: Right. There's something that's like, yeah, so, look. [01:09:00] Speaker A: I want to go talk about the connection in general. [01:09:04] Speaker B: All right? [01:09:05] Speaker A: It's very rare, in my opinion, the human being connection of a couple that meet. If we all have attraction people, we all go out and we meet attracted people all day long. We can see that, especially in California. But it's the connection that's rare. And when you find it, you want to hold on to it like this. Wow. I got connected with somebody. So I think that's what a lot of relationship, you miss that connection. Right. And I think that's what I want to just talk about a lot. It's the connection that is missed more than anything else, the friendship, and it's big. [01:09:42] Speaker B: Wow. People will often say, I miss my best friend or I felt like I had a best friend. [01:09:47] Speaker A: Yes. [01:09:47] Speaker B: Which is interesting, because in the friendship model of the world, therE's no jealousy. [01:09:53] Speaker A: There is no jealousy. [01:09:54] Speaker B: And you could be friends with however many people you want and who you want to be friends with. And that's an entirely different discussion on how it can be amazing that you can interact with someone you like by doing a sport or going to dinner or having a long, drawn out intimate talk or looking intently in each other's eyes. And for the most part, all of this is okay. But the moment you touch a sexual part or you have sex, you kiss, everything seems to change, and then all of a sudden, you can only do this with one person, but again, that's a whole other episode. So, of course, connection is huge in everything. And it is harder. I feel like it is a bit harder and harder to find someone who you don't mind spending a lot of time with or day and night or who you enjoy looking at. [01:10:36] Speaker A: Totally, yeah. Interesting. When you start realizing for years you didn't have the connection and then you meet somebody that you do and you're like, oh, my God, it's the best thing on earth. And you actually have an organ in your body that is tapping and throbbing and it's giving you a lot of emotions. Yes, it's very beautiful experience. [01:10:58] Speaker B: And I don't like to make the distinction of having to choose. I don't want to have to choose between connection or good sex. Connection or someone I'm physically attracted to comes together. [01:11:08] Speaker A: Connection that sex follows. Right. Not maybe right away for us. Wasn't right away too quiet to learn about each other's sexual needs? [01:11:16] Speaker B: Attraction wasn't right away. [01:11:19] Speaker A: Attraction on my part wasn't right away. No. On his part was. [01:11:23] Speaker B: This is so common with women. What happens is their personality grows on you. First, you're like, oh, it's a nice guy. I don't really see him that way. [01:11:29] Speaker A: I haven't told him I don't like until they do. Complete opposite. [01:11:33] Speaker B: Yeah, that's what's so funny. And that's actually for male listeners who are listening in. It's like you don't have to worry nearly as much about the way you look or how physically attractive you are, because if you really do cultivate a special personality, a very unique personality that's attractive and dynamic, it's easy to fall in love with that as well. And then suddenly the physical stops mattering as much because you love the person who's on the inside. [01:12:00] Speaker A: That's very beautiful. Beautifully said. That's exactly what it is. [01:12:04] Speaker B: Enough for now. [01:12:05] Speaker A: Yes. [01:12:05] Speaker B: Well, let's do it. That was wonderful. [01:12:07] Speaker A: I want to do this more. I love this. [01:12:10] Speaker B: Well, you did great. It was very spontaneous. It was great to have you. [01:12:13] Speaker A: Thank you so much. This is my first time and I will be back. [01:12:16] Speaker B: Great. Oh, lastly, I think you were talking about letting go of shame and guilt and how you aspire to that and. [01:12:22] Speaker A: How easy it is to be truthful and set yourself free and not be exhausted about how I'm going to carry this guilt. If you can just be truthful about it once and be brave to take all the judgment that you may be worried about and anxious about, and you free yourself up. When I told my girlfriends that, I never thought I would tell my girlfriends. I have been with a woman. I have had this experience. I did have a lover. I fell in love. It was empowering. I couldn't say that before, and it's touching me a lot to be able to be truthful. [01:12:56] Speaker B: I'm really glad that you can be. [01:12:57] Speaker A: It feels good and freeing. [01:12:59] Speaker B: Beautiful. Do you have any last thoughts or tips or advice for people who want to free themselves up more the way you have? [01:13:08] Speaker A: Just do it and don't let fear brings you down. Just do it. I really think that. [01:13:13] Speaker B: Great. Thank you for being so open and vulnerable and willing to really dive in to all of these subjects with me today. Friends Ladies and gentlemen, if you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing to the podcast, which is available across all platforms and anywhere podcasts can be found. And if you really got value out of it, please consider donating to our Patreon. You can do so in exchange for small gifts. You can do so out of the kindness of your heart. It's Patreon.com closeness. Thank you for listening and we will see you on the next episode. Be well.