Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the Closeness Podcast. Do you like what you're listening to? When you donate to our Patreon, you can get rewards that are tailored just for you, such as a podcast that answers your intimate questions, Private Oneonone coaching, plus custom tailored packages exclusively for couples. Visit patreon.com closeness for details. Now, are you ready to come closer? Let's get started. Hello, friends. Welcome back to part two of a subject that is so interesting because of how many ties it has to our personal relationships. This is part two of closeness in dance. I'm thrilled to have our second guest on the show with us today. We're going to introduce her in just a moment, but I want to remind everyone to check the show notes for this episode because we'll also be including not only information about how you can contact and find Daniela or learn more about her, but also links to what we find to be some of our favorite and most exciting Zook performances as well. So now let's turn our undivided attention over to a very sweet and dear Brazilian friend of mine. Daniela is the kind of woman who, when you look at her body of work, it's hard to imagine how someone has accomplished and achieved so much in so little time. She was the creator and executive producer of many events in Los Angeles such as Bouzios, Beyond Paradise, Rio Samba Nights, and the Miss Brazil USA LA pageant. She's a lifestyle entrepreneur, photographer, writer, brand strategist, podcaster, and self mastery and spiritual transcendence coach. On top of all of this, she's also created a nonprofit for children called Danceforkidsproject.com, should you wish to contribute. And somehow, this woman still finds time to follow her bliss, traveling the world over to dance at international Zook festivals. Ladies and gentlemen, I would love to welcome Daniela to the show.
[00:01:47] Speaker B: Well, thank you for having me. It's a lot of fun to be here. I love listening to your podcast, and so to be able to translate closeness in the dance floor should be a lot of fun.
[00:02:01] Speaker A: Yeah, I think so, too. And I think as people listen to this episode, you're going to find so many ways in which connecting through dance can help you connect in your own relationship, and vice versa. I think. To start, Daniela, I'd like to ask you just a little bit about the dance world as it pertains to intimacy. You were telling me a little earlier about a subject that's very sensitive and very juicy that had to do with women who have a hard time letting go of control in their personal relationships. Is that right?
[00:02:29] Speaker B: I believe dance is a great exercise for couples that are having trouble with their roles in a relationship. Nowadays, women are becoming more of the dominant and the controlling one in the relationship due to so many things that I hope Tari can talk about in a different podcast. But in my experience, dance helps couples tremendously because the man has to learn to lead, has to learn to let go of the hesitation, and the woman has to let him lead. Otherwise the dance will not take place and it will not work. So the woman needs to learn to trust their partner. She needs to let him lead, she needs to learn to follow. And in a sense, that connects us back to who we truly are, our feminine energy. And it helps the men get in touch with their role, be in touch with their masculine energy. That's what makes a perfect relationship, is when we are truly in touch with our essence and there is balance.
[00:03:38] Speaker A: Okay, got it. So then what happens if a man and a woman both lead?
[00:03:43] Speaker B: That's not a dance.
[00:03:46] Speaker A: What happens then to the dance?
[00:03:48] Speaker B: Impossible to happen.
[00:03:50] Speaker A: And what happens to the connection or the intimacy or the incredible feelings that come from someone leading and someone following?
[00:03:58] Speaker B: Well, if two people follow, it would be a struggle, a battle, and a conflict. Not dance, not flow. Nothing would work.
[00:04:09] Speaker A: I see. Do you believe that in traditional relationships or monogamous relationships, that someone needs to lead and someone needs to follow for it to be successful?
[00:04:18] Speaker B: Well, the interesting thing is, in a dance, when a man is leading, technically the leading is a suggestion of a movement. So in relationships, I think it's the same thing. We just need to be careful with the words of leading and not confusing that with dominating. Right. Leading means being confident in the actions that you are choosing to make, rather than demanding, controlling and forcing a situation.
[00:04:53] Speaker A: Okay, great. So it sounds like you're saying that if a couple is in a relationship and a woman is finding herself controlling it too much or trying to take the lead too much, and that's not working for you. That dance is an incredible outlet to help solve that, because it helps a man rediscover his role in leading and helps a woman allow and let go. Is that right?
[00:05:14] Speaker B: Yes. And be in touch with her feminine essence, which is ultimately what she wants, even though she might think it's not.
[00:05:22] Speaker A: Got it.
[00:05:23] Speaker B: Men don't really know where they stand in society because the woman is in charge for her life nowadays. She can cook, she can make money, she can pretty much do everything on her own.
And fortunately, or unfortunately, we had to learn that. We had to develop these skills and become strong to be able to survive in the society that we live nowadays. The unfortunate part, in my opinion, is because when that woman that had to adapt her energy, put aside her femininity, to embark in a society in which she has to be masculine, quote unquote, when she comes into the relationship, she tends to remain in that role, and the balance is off. Number one, she no longer allows the men to be the men, to take charge and to lead, and she pretty much becomes a control freak. And that obviously makes her be less desirable, and it makes her desire the men less, too, because she pretty much takes his power, in a way. So dance has helped me get in touch with my feminine essence. And I believe if a couple is having issues with roles, with control, with masculinity, femininity, and getting in tune with that sync again and that balance, dance can help, in a sense that the woman has to let go when it comes to being in a social dance, a partner dance, right? So dances like salsa, Zuk Bachata, partnering dance, the woman has to let go of her control because the man is the one that leads in dance. She needs to find trust in him because he will do certain moves that if she stands or if she doesn't trust him, it's not going to happen. The move is not going to flow. And so if a couple go take dance lessons, it can help them improve and find that balance again. The men, on the other hand, why is it a good exercise for the men is because he has to learn to take charge again. He has to learn to find that confidence, to not hesitate when he chooses to make the move.
[00:08:00] Speaker A: Okay, that was really good and so clear. Thank you. You and I have spoken a lot about what makes a woman feel safe privately. Between you and I, can you give us a little introduction or an explanation about how and if women feel safe in the dance world and in the dance community, and what that experience is like for a woman.
[00:08:20] Speaker B: In my experience, the dance community bring us the feeling of family.
We are there with people from all different backgrounds, all different genders, colors, sexual preferences.
And the beautiful thing is that dance brings us all together. It's one of the few places you will see people from all backgrounds, financial status, religion, everything. It's one of the biggest melting pots that bring us all together. Maybe for that reason, we feel that's a safe environment to be in, because it's a place in which we can express ourselves not only in the dance floor, but as a community.
[00:09:07] Speaker A: Perfect. As with everything, I'm going to keep relating dance to closeness and intimacy. And that sort of thing. And throughout this whole conversation, I'll be doing that intentionally. But I know that the purpose of dance is not to be sexual or to have sex, although expressing your sensuality or expressing your sexuality or femininity or masculinity can be a part of the dance. But I do want to give listeners a real broad understanding of how intimacy and closeness is so tied into dancing itself. So to continue along with the same question at a social event, it's likely that a woman is going to dance with maybe countless men in an evening. She's taking in different scents and feelings and vibrations and gosh, so much information about dancing with different partners. And we were speaking earlier about this idea of we have multiple words for it. Chivalry, decorum, tact, etiquette, social graces, manners, all of these things which secretly, if you haven't noticed, the closeness podcast is really all about. Can you tell me a bit about how that works and how it all comes together?
[00:10:22] Speaker B: In my opinion, we feel safe in the dance community because a guy would not last in that environment more than, I don't know, a few days or hours, even in a social event or dance community, because it's in a way small and everybody tends to know everybody. If a guy is creepy or acts in a wrong way, or tries to take advantage of the fact that he's dancing with a woman, number one, that woman will likely not want to dance with him again.
And that word is going to be passed around fairly quickly because we all want to be in a safe environment. Therefore, we would probably be telling other girls, that guy's creepy. That guy is like this. The same way we would say, wow, that guy's an amazing dancer.
[00:11:13] Speaker A: Got it. So in all facets of life, creepy has become a very popular word for people to use for, say, someone who makes a woman feel uncomfortable, even though in my mind it's like someone in a dark alleyway in a trench coat who flashes you, or someone whose energy is so unbelievably strong and bad that your skin crawls. Nevertheless, can you explain what type of behavior would specifically be creepy at a social dance?
[00:11:41] Speaker B: I think when you're dancing with someone, you're so close to them, and it could be an energy thing, but we feel and we sense the interest and the desire in the partner. So if there is a sexual intention that it's being expressed, even with a gesture, I think we will notice. It's hard to explain how, call it a woman's 6th sense, but it's fairly noticeable to us. There is the obvious, like touching in parts of the body that is inappropriate or trying to talk during the dance, which is something that nobody likes, because we are not there in the middle of a dance floor to talk. We're there to dance. Those are a few things that I can think of, yes.
[00:12:35] Speaker A: And I want to draw a parallel here to real relationships and sexual intimacy. When it comes to talking about doing it before you do it or having dialogue sometimes about intimacy, when you feel safe and you feel good with your partner. More often than not, what I hear from so many women is they don't want to talk about it. They want to do it, or they want to have it done to them. Now, very important disclaimer here. If it's the first time you're having sex with someone and you don't know what they like or what they want or if they even want you yet, of course, use what you know about consent and use what you know about asking for permission. But if you are in a situation where it's consensual, this is where the desirable thing to do, the way to experience the most pleasure and ecstasy is by doing and not talking. So, too, with dancing. When it comes down to the actual act of it, you're there to dance. Not to talk about it or ask about it or philosophize about it. You're there to get on the dance floor and move. When you take away the talking component and you tune into your body, to me also, that's sometimes what allows us to experience the ecstasy of dance. Now, to go back to something you were saying earlier, I think what comes to mind for listeners when you were talking about inappropriate places to touch is probably boobs and butt. But I think you're talking about a little more than that. Can you tell us a little bit more about what it means to be inappropriately touched or interacted with? From a woman's point of view, I.
[00:14:05] Speaker B: Think even how a man will touch the waist or the back, but, yeah, in general, the private parts. But I think it comes down to the intention, and we feel that fairly easily.
[00:14:19] Speaker A: Were you also telling me earlier that maybe hands on hips might even be inappropriate if the dance is meant to be danced higher up on the waist?
[00:14:27] Speaker B: Yes, there is a lot of controversy, and with that because there are so many teachers out there. Some will say, for example, in the Kizamba world, the hand should be in the upper part of the back. Some will go in the lower part of the back. So it really depends on who's teaching that goes a little bit on the gray.
[00:14:49] Speaker A: Okay. And then just to add a little bit more about what makes someone creepy or what makes a woman feel uncomfortable in the dance world, you're essentially telling me that you can sense a man's intention. And if it feels more sexual than a desire to actually dance and practice the skill together and have more of an experience together, that it can become uncomfortable for you. Is that right?
[00:15:12] Speaker B: Yes, I think you phrased it pretty accurately.
[00:15:16] Speaker A: Okay, cool. All right. And before we go too far down the road of intimacy and sensuality, can you just give us a bit of a background of your dance experience? What you grew up dancing, what comes naturally to you, what you're familiar with, sort of an introduction to your world of dance.
[00:15:32] Speaker B: In a nutshell, I grew up in Brazil, started dancing ballet at five years old, and went through pretty much most of the Brazilian rhythms. Faux Lambada. When I moved to the US, I started dancing Salsa and bachata Merenge. And when Zou came along, which happened to be the next generation of Lambada.
[00:15:55] Speaker A: Let me interrupt you here for a moment, if you don't mind. How did Zook come along? What does that mean?
[00:16:01] Speaker B: Zook came along because Lambada, which was a music genre that started in the 80s, which happened to be a very sensual dance with lots of hip movement, hair flips, danced in a circular motion with another partner. There was some controversy because it was such a sensual dance. So DJs at the time started boycotting the music. But there were a lot of dancers at the time who wanted to continue dancing. So they borrowed the zook music from the French Caribbean islands and started adapting the Lombada dance to that. That's how Zouk became Zouk. Nowadays Zouk is danced all over the world. There are festivals, congresses, pretty much every single month or almost every weekend throughout the year in multiple cities around the world. And that's how I'm spending most of my time, is dancing in zook festivals and congresses around the world.
[00:17:02] Speaker A: Nice. That's actually really amazing. So, Daniela, speak to us a little bit about how your femininity or your way of shining or even your sensuality as a woman comes out when you're dancing.
[00:17:16] Speaker B: I think dance allows us to be in touch with who we are in a sense that when you take classes, you need to understand your body. You need to understand what moves you need to make and how you make those moves. So you become more aware of your body. By becoming more aware of your body, you also become aware of how to move. I believe dance is a healing method as well, in which you release a lot of insecurities, because what I think is this. I only started actually feeling like that once I mastered the skill first, because before, it was that frustration of getting there and knowing what to do and all of that. Once you master it, now you own it. Dance helped me become a lot more feminine and in touch with my feminine energy in a sense that I used to be a little bit on the control freak side of a relationship.
And through dance, you need to allow the other person to lead. You need to put yourself in the hands of that person and trust.
And I think dance is a beautiful vehicle to bring that out in you, to allow you. To train you to trust on the other person, to train you to become more confident in yourself, to be more aware of your body, to be more aware of the moves you make. And once you developed the skill of whichever dance you're doing, a sense of power and a sense of ownership of the craft gives you the confidence to then bring out that light and the shine of the sensuality and all the stuff that's actually hidden due to rEligion, social programming, and maybe family standards and all of that. So I think dance is a perfect healing tool and developing tool for self esteem, feminine empowerment, and strength. I think the fun thing about dancing is that, first, you should definitely learn to dance for yourself rather than for the other person, because that's when you have the most fun, when you're not worried about who's out there looking at you. And once you own that and once you're so comfortable in your body and your skin, then dancing for the other person and for your partner becomes a much more pleasurable experience.
[00:19:53] Speaker A: Wow. So powerful and so good. Okay, tell us a little more about what dance is to you and what makes someone an incredible dancer that you can't get enough of.
[00:20:05] Speaker B: Dance. To me, it's a way of expressing my feminine energy and my sensuality, despite who I'm dancing with. I believe that the best dancers are the ones that dance for themselves and not for the other person. And that is something that you can easily identify on a dance floor, is when you dance for someone, as in, look at me, versus when you're dancing for you.
[00:20:36] Speaker A: That's really important, what you just expressed right there. Thank you. All right, now let's take an even juicier turn. Daniela, do you believe in chivalry?
[00:20:47] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:20:48] Speaker A: In a dating environment or when you're dating a man, what does it mean to you when a man is being chivalrous?
[00:20:56] Speaker B: In my opinion, every woman enjoys the basic being taken care of, enjoys feeling safe, enjoys a man being polite, courteous, open the car doors and things like that. And I have a hard time believing these new women out there that believe they should do it all and the men shouldn't open the door for them. And the whole feminine movement thing, I'm more of an old school kind of person, so it's hard for me to even comprehend that whole movement on. I'll do it myself.
[00:21:32] Speaker A: Sure. I think it's also important to distinguish the difference between chivalrous acts and then just favors that are constantly being done for members of the opposite sex just because. Are there any other examples of what you're calling basic behavior? Typical ones are paying for bills, walking on the outside of the road so a car can hit him first instead of you buying or bringing flowers, kissing a woman's hand, of course, opening doors, standing when a woman arrives at the table. What are the important ones and the most sort of essential ones, in your opinion?
[00:22:09] Speaker B: All of the above. To me, there is not too much chivalry.
[00:22:14] Speaker A: Is there a difference then to you in chivalry in a dating environment versus chivalry in dance, or do you think it all stems from the same foundation?
[00:22:24] Speaker B: I think chivalry in the dance community is essential for the simple fact that we are in very close proximity to the opposite sex. Therefore, rules and guidelines are a must in order for it to be a safe environment and a fun environment for everyone involved.
[00:22:48] Speaker A: Okay, cool. Do you think that men in the dance world ever don't feel safe?
[00:22:53] Speaker B: Absolutely, yes. Just like there are men that will try to take advantage of the situation, there are also women that do the same. And there are lots of stories and very juicy stories of men in the dancing who have the MeToo hashtag in their lives. Obviously, it's not the meToo in the sense that they were raped or things like that, but definitely sex harassment happens both ways.
[00:23:25] Speaker A: Okay, well, since this conversation took a very unusual turn, do you feel that there should be equal weight or equal understanding for a man who has a me too story versus a woman who does? In other words, do you feel they both deserve the same care and attention, or is there anything in you that feels that because a man is a man, that a MeToo story may not be applicable?
[00:23:51] Speaker B: I think because the nature of who a woman is more fragile, more sensitive, and all of that, it's a more delicate situation than with a man, also because of body size, strength and all of that. But if any human being goes through, sexual harassment is obviously an uncomfortable situation, I think the difference is that a man, because of its, I guess, size and strength and being a man, he can get out of this situation because it's much harder for a woman to force a man to have sex. That's not even possible, right? Let's face it.
[00:24:34] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, now we're getting into some deep water and some very dangerous territory. Do I think a woman could force a man to have sex? I do think so. Insofar as him feeling uncomfortable or unable to say no, or him feeling guilty or bad or like he should or he ought to, even for the basic reason of being a man. Like I should want this or I should need to do this. He might even be feeling guilty for not doing it because she's upset or sad about it or expresses even anger or frustration. All these things could lead to someone giving in to doing something that they don't want to do. But if he's not, for whatever reason, able to express no and goes through with it anyway. I think everybody has been in that position one way or another, where something's happening. You're not sure you want it to happen, but you go through because you don't want to rock the boat. You don't want to make everyone feel uncomfortable, something like that. Is there anything else you'd like to add to this that you think would benefit listeners to hear before we move on?
[00:25:34] Speaker B: Well, actually, I've heard of quite a few stories about men who has some of the dancers who would have their rooms invaded by women who actually want to have sex with them and would literally burst into their rooms. And I think the MeToo stories can definitely happen both ways, but it's just not publicized as much because I think a man would even feel shame to actually tell a story like that. Like, wow, I woke up and there was a naked woman in my bed, and I didn't want to be with her, and it's embarrassing. And for men to come to that place of sharing something like that would get even a bad rap amongst other men who would be like, what do you mean? You should just do that?
[00:26:26] Speaker A: That, I think, is a really powerful message to share. I know we weren't really going down this path when we started our conversation, but here we are, and I think that's really powerful and potent of you to share. So to gently ease off this subject a little bit, is there anything set in place in your mind, whether romantically or in the dance world, with regard to chivalry that a woman does back to a man or for a man to honor him or respect him or nurture his boundaries, something like this, or does that just not exist?
[00:27:00] Speaker B: It's a very interesting question. To be honest, I can't really think of specific things that a woman would do to be chivalrous. I think it's very important for a woman to be as delicate as possible when a man is approaching her on the dance floor if she doesn't want to dance with him for whatever reason. But I think that's both ways, not just for the women. I think men and women in the dance community, or at least most of us, will try to be as gentle and delicate, expressing or thanking the person for inviting them to dance if they choose to say no.
So that's just basic cordiality.
[00:27:46] Speaker A: Okay, this is great because it brings up two topics I want to wrap up with this idea of chivalry, and I want to just verify that in your mind, chivalry is one directional. In a sense. It's from the man to the woman. It doesn't necessarily go from the woman to the man. Does that feel right to you that it's a man taking care of a woman? And there's not necessarily something that a woman does back or gives back in terms of this chivalry subject?
[00:28:11] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it was created in this way. I don't really know why. I guess historians will be able to decipher why this behavior started and exists till now, to this day, but, yeah, I don't really understand or know why. It's a one directional thing. Would love to hear other people's opinion about it.
[00:28:34] Speaker A: It's interesting, and again, such a bizarre turn that we took. But I was thinking, we do so much to protect women, woman.
We do so much to protect women and care for women and make sure they feel safe. And then when this story came up about the whole Metoo thing, I thought, well, I wonder if women do anything to make men feel safe or comfortable or sort of provide an act of chivalry in return that maybe goes the other direction. I think what that might be is the tact and respect with which you reject a man if you don't want something to do with him, and the respect that you show him if you are turning him down. I mean, I do whole episodes about how to say no, how to not only reject someone, but how to receive rejection. So can you talk to us a little bit about what you think maybe chivalry in terms of rejecting a partner who asks you to dance, what that would look like?
[00:29:30] Speaker B: Yeah, I think rejection should be a double standard for sure. On that one, because we are all human beings who will do everything we can not to feel rejected. We all want to feel seen. We all want to be acknowledged and feel loved and desired. So I don't think it has to do with gender. It has to do with understanding that there is a human on the other side of that request, with feelings and hopefully, a good intention. And the way I feel most of the time, I feel honored when someone, I guess, asks me out or desires me or wants to dance with me. I think it's how every person should feel. Therefore, if they are not interested in whatever thing it is, they should do it in a polite way, for sure.
[00:30:31] Speaker A: Recently, we had the experience to see many, many professional dancers dancing freestyle dancing in shows, teaching privates, and dancing in classes, seeing the reactions and responses from women when they're able to dance with someone who knows how to lead and who knows what they're doing. And I was absolutely blown away by how these women responded to men who know how to lead well or were considered great dancers. I had my observations about what I saw. I want to share them with you, and you could tell me if you agree or not or if you had a different experience yourself. I tend to relate everything to closeness because I think that's fundamentally what we all want as people. I think that's what happens when you dance well with someone, when you do acrobatics well with someone, when you have a successful relationship, even when you're close with your family, there's a sense of closeness and happiness that abounds. And I think that when I saw these professional dancers maneuver and masterfully move these women across the dance floor, which, by the way, whether the lead was a woman or a man, didn't matter. What I saw in their eyes, in the women's eyes was ecstasy, Euphoria, a state of trance, a state of unbelievable well being, and so many more things being taken care of, being held, being supported, being allowed to shine, having their femininity come through and shine through, I couldn't believe how much I was observing in one dance. I mean, let me just sum it up for you. To me. If you asked every woman on the planet what they love and yearn for in a relationship, what makes them feel vibrant and happy and alive and seen and beautiful and feminine, and you put all that together and expressed it in five minutes, it would look like what these women were experiencing from their partner within themselves by way of dance, and more specifically, by way of zook, except without a relationship and without a commitment and with the ability to walk away in seconds over and over and over again from all of the most talented dancers. And I saw that was missing from dancers who were not so talented or who lacked that ability. That became more of a favor, maybe, or just a nice little experience or something decent, but not that ecstasy, that euphoria, that feeling of being lost and being entrance. Literally entrance. Now, I know that was a lot to digest, quite a mouthful. So I just want to hear if you agree or if you have some additional thoughts about that.
[00:33:20] Speaker B: Well, I think you put it very well, and I would definitely use the same words to express the feeling. And it's definitely exhilarating to dance with a master dancer. I think that goes with anything. Just like eating a meal that's prepared by a master chef or someone that is so good at what they do and has truly mastered that craft.
[00:33:49] Speaker A: I agree with that. But I think that some skills don't lend themselves to female pleasure or sensuality at all. Say, for example, in the case of a professional, I'll just put something out there, no offense. Football players. I don't see a woman getting lost in a trance due to her amazement of how far or hard a man can throw a football, hit a baseball, swing a club. She or anyone can appreciate it. They can be into sports or love a certain activity, or admire the partner who does it. But I think to derive the exquisite pleasure that you're getting from dance, in some regards, the skill set has to be centered around things that females derive pleasure from. But other than that, I agree.
[00:34:37] Speaker B: So you're absolutely right.
The feeling we experience in one dance is, I think, what makes us keep coming back and is what makes the dance community grow is because we get fulfillment in so many different human needs out of one dance.
[00:35:01] Speaker A: So much fulfillment. What was so interesting to me also was the parallel of that feeling of what a woman gets to experience when she's being danced with. Well, with real live relationships, if you're in a traditional relationship, committed, monogamous relationship, I find that that's typically what a woman desires, is to feel feminine, to feel cared for, to feel safe, lead, shiny, beautiful, all these things. So what is so unbelievably fascinating to me is usually that feeling is reserved for relationship and usually a sexual one and or a monogamous one. And yet here you're able to experience those same feelings without a relationship and without owing anybody anything. In fact, it's five minutes of your time, or ten or 15, depending on how many dances you have. And I think that's extraordinary on so many levels, because it's so fulfilling and it's so safe and it doesn't require anything of her. In your opinion, what do you think a professional dancer or someone who can give a woman that experience is getting him or herself by leading that experience? And it is an interesting point to bring up that both a man or a woman can be the lead, that either a man or woman can take on that role together. So to distill down, my question to you is, when a person takes on the role of a lead, what do you think is being fulfilled in them?
[00:36:29] Speaker B: I think the lead is taking the same benefits as the follower, or in this case, in general. The man is taking care of the follower, is taking care of the woman. It's being in his masculine. It's taking charge of the dance. And that's a very powerful place to be in knowing exactly when to take charge, when to do the next move, and then having the feedback, which is the response from the follower, of actually responding at the perfect time, which brings an amazing sensation of, wow, we're really in sync with each other because obviously you have to develop the skills of the craft of dance. But then it comes down to connection, being sync, being present, being in the moment. And I think that's when magic happens.
[00:37:24] Speaker A: Okay, I want to ask you a bit of a dangerous question without insinuating anything. If sex is one of the most beautiful things we can experience as a couple, or when we're in a partnership sharing sexuality together, how close is the feeling of euphoria that you get when you dance? Personally to that, and of course, I'm not suggesting it's a sexual feeling. I'm asking in terms of if great sex is like a ten out of ten, do you enjoy dancing equally as much?
[00:37:59] Speaker B: Well, dance is one of my biggest passions in life. So to me it can be. It's hard to say because I wouldn't say it's as equal because the experience is so different. But I would assume that anyone that has a passion or a hobby, that to them is top priority in their list of things that make them happy. Maybe they experience that because I've heard chefs talking about how they go in trance when they are cooking something, or musicians when they play an instrument. So to me, as a dancer, yes, the dance can take me to a place of ecstasy and trance, just like good sex can too.
[00:38:45] Speaker A: Right?
[00:38:46] Speaker B: But it has to be good, right?
[00:38:48] Speaker A: I think you're suggesting, and I agree with you, that a lot of these activities put us in a flow state or a theta state. Or allows us to connect to whatever we want to call it, God, source, the universe, or whatever. And we're doing so through our passions. Sex could be one of them, playing an instrument could be another. Being a chef and dancing. Is that right?
[00:39:08] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:39:09] Speaker A: Okay, this is good. You're familiar with the expression fake it till you make it, right?
[00:39:14] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:39:14] Speaker A: Would you recommend new people to the dance world fake it till they make it? Because I'm going to give an assumption. If someone demonstrates qualities of being what I'll call either a beta male or a beta partner, such as. Oh, excuse me. Oh, I'm sorry. Ooh, pardon me. Maybe looking down, nervous, jittery body language or too tight or too hard or too firm. If they're making a lot of beginner mistakes, do you think there's benefit to faking it till you make it or finding or resourcing a level of confidence within yourself that maybe isn't authentically there yet to provide a better experience for both partners?
[00:39:53] Speaker B: Wow, that's a tough question, because at the same time that I like when someone acknowledges if they did a mistake with a quick, I'm sorry, you obviously don't want somebody doing that constantly. And we know when somebody is new, we obviously know, and there's a certain level of understanding that there's only so much they can do and that they will do mistakes because they don't own that skill. But on the other hand, there is also those big egos out there that will always put the fault on the follower, which is funny because teachers always like to say in class, it's always the leader's fault.
But there are those out there that no matter what, they always think it's not their fault.
[00:40:45] Speaker A: And are you in agreement with your teachers that it is always the lead's fault?
[00:40:49] Speaker B: For the most part, yes. And that's why, well, I always like to acknowledge when I make a mistake. But, yes, in general, whoever is leading is the one in charge of the move. So if the move is not led correctly, the follower can't respond appropriately.
[00:41:10] Speaker A: Can you describe the qualities of a phenomenal lead? What makes someone who's an outstanding leader someone so desirable to dance with? What does he or she do or not do that makes it such an intoxicating experience?
[00:41:24] Speaker B: Well, that's the part that I think chemistry plays a big part. I can go hocus pocus on that because I think we are made of energy. We are energy. So it's two energy fields coming together. And with that, just like when you see somebody and you like them or when you see somebody and you don't like them and you don't really know why. I think in the dance floor is the same thing that's taking away the obvious, right? Knowing exactly the right moves, being a master and skillful dancer, meaning being a technical dancer. So it's a combination of knowing your craft and your energy field in combination with the other person.
[00:42:11] Speaker A: It almost sounded like you said, I'm using my words here that it doesn't matter if the lead is a great dancer because your chemistry could dictate whether it's going to be good or not. Like when two people meet in a normal situation as well.
[00:42:25] Speaker B: I believe one of the most important things to make a dance great is the fact that both people are enjoying the experience. So let's say you're a beginner, but somehow you're having a good time. You might be doing some mistakes, but the fact that you're confident, even being a beginner, you're just confident that I don't know so much, but I'm going to do the best that I can, and I'm going to have fun with the process rather than being self conscious and being afraid and being scared and all of that. But you're just enjoying and doing the best that you can. Even if all you're doing is a basic step, I think it's possible for us to enjoy that dance. Now, on the other hand, I can dance with a technical dancer that's a master teacher, a master dancer, and there's so much ego. And you could dance with someone that is so into themselves that they forget about who they are dancing with, or that dancer that is dancing, just so everybody can look at them and they lack the connection with who they are dancing with. So, to me, one of the most important things in a dance is definitely the being present, connecting with who you're dancing with and doing your best to have fun despite your technical skills.
[00:43:48] Speaker A: Yeah, that was really well explained, especially the part where you said that a lead can be so into himself that he barely recognizes who's in front of him or doesn't give attention to his partner, because I've heard women complain about that in sex as well. When you ask them what makes a satisfying partner, it's a man who is into them and not solely focused on their pleasure or their ability or their skill. And it could get tricky because especially sexually, a lot of men are focused on their ability, even though it's intended to pleasure you, but they're so focused on the arrogance of it or the ego of it or how great they are because they've pleasured you, that it takes away the human connection. Are there things that you think a lead can do to help their partner.
[00:44:31] Speaker B: Feel safe, their confidence level, how respectful they are, how gentle they are, and how firm they are? It's a tough question to answer because it's important to have the skills if you're a novice. When it comes to my physical safety, it's making sure if you're a beginner or not to try crazy moves because you don't have the skill yet to, for example, do a dip. You could injure my back. You could throw me on the floor. So definitely be conscious of what you can and cannot do. Safety. As far as feeling comfortable in close proximity with someone and feeling respected, I think it's just the basic things you would do anywhere.
[00:45:24] Speaker A: Something came to mind with something you said earlier about how a lead maneuvers you across the dance floor. So in other podcast episodes, I talk a lot about loaded words and loaded vocabulary. God, money, power, sex, these are all loaded words insofar as we generally know what they mean, but we all have different meanings for theM, so we have to be careful with how we use them. And I actually think that leading, which can be similar in some regards to dominating or being dominant, can be very confusing. In intimate relationships and dance, someone has to take the lead and they have to be dominant, and they have to be, in some regards, using this in a gentle way, aggressive. They have to initiate, they have to move forward with confidence. Literally move forward, literally push your body backwards or draw it towards you with confidence at the same time. It's so interesting because this in dance must be done so delicately. I'd love to hear some of your thoughts on that, if you agree, number one, and if you have more to add to it. But just getting into the subtleties of what being a good lead is all.
[00:46:43] Speaker B: About, well, I like to compare that again with preparing a meal or playing an instrument. It's the nuances in the super. I guess that's why I prefer to be a follower than a leader, because it takes so much skill to know exactly the amount of force necessary to create a movement. And so it's something that definitely requires skill, practice, patience, and, yes, it's.
Sorry.
[00:47:22] Speaker A: You'Re good. Not so much.
[00:47:24] Speaker B: You said it so well. You're right. That's it. What else can I say? You already said it, the whole thing. I would just repeat myself.
[00:47:32] Speaker A: Okay, so you like what I'm saying and you agree?
[00:47:34] Speaker B: Yeah, you said it perfectly. And to me, it's the same way referring back to being a chef, preparing a meal, playing an instrument. It requires a lot of practice, it requires a lot of dedication, and it's all about mastering a craft.
[00:47:53] Speaker A: Sure. And I agree with you, but I'm leaning towards trying to find something that could help leads. Or possibly men or people who want to be leaders in a dating situation or relationship situation, find their confidence and their ability sharing with us your thoughts on how you like to be led. Because as men who hear things like, I need to lead, or I need to be dominant, or I need to make the first move, I think some men think they need to move forward with full force when the truth is there is an art to it. And I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.
[00:48:25] Speaker B: Well, we like to say, in dance, the leader is not forcing anything. He's simply suggesting. So every movement that he's making, he's giving us a suggestion. Would you like to do this move? In a way, it's up to us to choose to do it or not. What makes a dance epic is when the leader suggests the move, and the follower knows how to perform that move, and on and on and on with every single move. Now, the interesting thing in dance is that with a split of a second of a hesitation in the leader's part, we notice and we feel it, and then that either we have to improve.
[00:49:13] Speaker A: Well, I think what you're trying to say is improvise, but is it also too much to say that it ruins the move or can ruin it?
[00:49:22] Speaker B: The slightest hesitation can throw off the move. You miss the beat.
[00:49:26] Speaker A: Right. And what's the feeling that happens when you miss the beat?
[00:49:30] Speaker B: Well, then now you have to improvise and come up with something else and find a different way. And I think in life, it's the same thing. I think what we love is a man to take the lead, to be confident in the move that he is making. And if there's hesitation in that move, it just becomes not sexy and not desirable. So when it comes down to the men taking charge and being the leader, yes, that's a beautiful thing. But as long as he understands he is suggesting not forcing a situation.
It takes two to tango.
[00:50:09] Speaker A: And this is such a fascinating point, because what Daniela said is a lead needs to both offer a suggestion without ever hesitating. And that is an extremely interesting and challenging place to be, because a suggestion is not a full power initiation. A suggestion is not. We're doing this whether you like it or not. It's an offering. That's being done through leading.
[00:50:40] Speaker B: And the interesting thing is, what makes a dancer an amazing dancer is knowing the capacity that that woman has to make that move. So let's say you're an amazing dancer and you can do all kinds of things, but the woman you'Re dancing with might not be able to do those moves. So a great dancer knows how to read that woman and know how far that woman can go. That's what makes a great dancer, because that dancer will be able to make every single woman on the dance floor look amazing and feel amazing because he knows how far she can go, and he will never go past that. Making us look bad. The job of the leader on the dance floor is to make the woman shine or the follower shine, right?
[00:51:32] Speaker A: Good.
Based on what you just said, are there moments just in dancing? Are there moments of jealousy, frustration and anger? If someone dances longer with someone else, or more than one dance with another woman, will another woman feel? Why didn't he do that with me? And what is all that about?
[00:51:50] Speaker B: Oh, wow.
There is so much on that. I think you should save that for a different podcast because we could be hours talking about the dramas and the ins and outs of human psychology on the dance floor.
[00:52:03] Speaker A: Are you open to giving us, like, a succinct example of if that exists and maybe what your thoughts are on it?
[00:52:08] Speaker B: Well, in the dance world, yes, we are dancing. And yes, it's the dance world, but it's still human beings on the dance floor. And with that comes insecurities, come jealousies and comes all of our baggages. As much as in the moment, we are fully present and we feel like all of our problems go away right after a dance finishes, all of our egos, insecurities, and things can come up. And so, yes, there are always the issues and the things that we need to deal with, like the feelings of rejection, the feelings of not being significant enough, not being good enough. So all of that is something that we are having to deal with in the dance world because we are all humans and we still have all of those things that we have to work on as human beings.
[00:53:04] Speaker A: Beautiful. I'm just going to throw you a couple of wild cards before we wrap up here. You were saying that a follower's role is to shine and a leader's role is to make the follower look good. Do you agree?
[00:53:16] Speaker B: Yeah, that's pretty much how it works.
[00:53:19] Speaker A: Okay. In your personal experience in relationships, what is a man's role and a woman's role? I mean, we're talking about a heterosexual relationship because you're heterosexual. But how do these roles play out for you?
[00:53:32] Speaker B: I think a perfect relationship is when both people are there for each other, choosing to help them see parts of themselves that they cannot see on their own. To me, that's a powerful relationship. It's helping the other person see the beauty in them, see the qualities that they have, and remind them that they are there for them no matter what.
[00:54:00] Speaker A: I love this. What I'm hearing from you is a message of unity and togetherness and not necessarily separation or what one man should do or a woman should do. Is that right?
[00:54:11] Speaker B: I think it's everyone's job to make us all shine, and that's even beyond the relationship. I think if we all choose to focus and see the best in each of us, we will all shine together. I find pleasure in sharing with friends, family and love partners the best in them. That makes me feel good, just like it makes me feel good to acknowledge an amazing dancer on the dance floor. I always like to give them compliments, and if we could all do that with everyone around us, the world would be a different place.
[00:54:52] Speaker A: Sure would. Last two kind of crazy questions.
Specifically in terms of gender roles. What are some things in a relationship for you that a man can do for you that makes you shine? And then what are a few things that you feel you're good at that helps make a man feel like he can shine?
[00:55:11] Speaker B: I've experienced relationships in which the men would freely express what they feel about me and my qualities on a consistent basis in a sense that, not that they have to, but they like that. And to me, that's when I felt the most powerful and confident once again. I think it's like that tribe in Africa that they did that study wish. When somebody does something wrong, it's about bringing the community and reminding that person of all the amazing things that they are. And that is how we improve or help someone become better.
[00:55:53] Speaker A: Highlighting the loving qualities, highlighting the things you appreciate, keeping the focus on, appreciation, all of that.
[00:56:02] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:56:02] Speaker A: And it sounds like you think that both parties should be doing that. That that goes unanimously to help a man shine or a woman shine.
[00:56:09] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:56:10] Speaker A: Wonderful. It has been an absolute pleasure to have you here today. I think you've given us such a unique perspective and a really rare glimpse into the dance world, and I think that so many of your experiences and your immersion into this world have given us a very special perspective. As a result of this, I think listeners have got a really good idea about what closeness in dance is and can be.
[00:56:34] Speaker B: Thank you. I enjoyed this experience as well.
[00:56:37] Speaker A: Is there anything else you'd like to add before we wrap up?
[00:56:40] Speaker B: Go get on the dance floor and experience everything that we shared here.
[00:56:46] Speaker A: When in doubt, get on the dance floor. Now. In case you missed it, Danielle has really been talking a lot about her style of dance that she enjoys the most, which may be a word that you haven't heard before. It's called zook. Both of us would strongly recommend you trying out this class if you haven't seen it before. In my own words, it's incredible because you're able to guide your partner not just through specific basic steps, which there are those, of course, but also through all sorts of unbelievably freestyled movement. And in that freestyle and in that flow, I think, is where people seem to be finding this trance state, is in spirals and circles and chest movements and neck circles and everything in between.
Would you like to add a little bit more to that?
[00:57:34] Speaker B: The beauty about the Zook dancing is also the vast repertoire of music genres, which I think other styles of dance don't bring to the table.
[00:57:49] Speaker A: This is big.
[00:57:50] Speaker B: We can dance Zook to Frank Sinatra, all the way to reggaetone and Justin Bieber. We can have slow dances and we can have fast dances, and I think that's what makes us stay up dancing until six in the morning and on.
[00:58:06] Speaker A: That's actually a really big point that Daniela is raising. Typically, when you dance salsa, that is one specific kind of music. You love it or you hate it. It's generally only one genre, but you can have hip hop, R B, Latin music, everything in between. And to me, that's what makes it accessible to so many people, is because people respond so strongly to the music they like the most. I have a background in hip hop dancing, which primarily is done solo, or you could do it in a group, but you're generally not touching anyone else. And a lot of dance is like that. As someone who has been introduced to social dancing, I just cannot believe the parallels to closeness and intimacy. There are so many ways, and I don't just want to say this about Zook, but in all styles of dancing, salsa dancers, bachateros, people who do swing, there's such an incredible connection that can come from dancing with a partner. And I know we've been talking about Zook predominantly in this episode, but it's just for all forms of dance that that connection can be so special. And it could happen with a brush of a hand, a breath, a footstep. It can come from anything. One of the things I appreciate so much about Zook, however, is the way your body is connected. And also another one that I learned about recently called Kazamba, is where you are attached, where you are pressing against the other person. And in some cases, that's your abdomen or your chest or your stomach area. And so even breathing comes into play. And the way you can share breath with someone while you're dancing and connect with them, that might even be invisible to people watching. But the two of you feel it together.
[00:59:47] Speaker B: Beautiful. I think you couldn't have said it better.
[00:59:52] Speaker A: Good. Well, I think we can now officially wrap it up. So thank you so much for being here. Let me say a few words about Daniela. Now, in case you want to follow her on social media, check out her website and so forth. You can follow her and her travels all around the world on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook at DannyGula, which is Danigula. And then you can also check out her website, Licensetoshine.com, where she teaches introverts how to get out of their shells and create a lifestyle business online. How's that for cool and unusual? Danny, thank you so much for being here. It's really been a pleasure, and I can't wait to push our episode live online.
[01:00:32] Speaker B: Well, I had a lot of fun. Thank you so much for inviting me. And I hope to see everyone on the dance floor.
